Episode 2
‘At What Point’ will we feel safe? The Viral Wake-Up Call That Spoke to Millions, with Poet Caitlin O’Ryan
“We are so aware from such a young age that it might happen and that it could happen… As women, we’re just so normalised into hyper-vigilance constantly.” - Caitlin O’Ryan, Actor, Podcaster & Poet
"This has got nothing to do with saying that every male causes danger. But it’s about, from a societal perspective, understanding … [that] these are just some of the considerations we navigate every single day before we go about our lives." - Jo Phillips, The Woman Behind The Women
*This episode lands just in time for International Women’s Day 2025 (Saturday, March 8th), a day to celebrate women’s achievements and challenge the barriers that still hold us back.
As we mark this occasion, The Chat Womb is bringing you a conversation that speaks to the daily realities women face, from safety and self-worth to the invisible weight - and cost - of societal expectations. Caitlin O’Ryan’s viral poem At What Point struck a chord with millions, and in this episode we explore what it truly means to exist, navigate, and push back against these norms.
International Women’s Day is as much about celebrating progress and women’s achievements as it is about shining a spotlight on the work still to be done…*
Episode Summary:
Taking a seat in The Chat Womb with Jo Phillips today is Caitlin O’Ryan - actor, poet, and podcaster - to discuss the hidden costs of simply existing as a woman.
Caitlin shares the story behind her viral spoken-word poem At What Point, which reached millions online, shedding light on the constant state of hyper-vigilance women live with daily. From assessing risks when walking alone at night to altering schedules, paying for safety, and feeling the weight of social expectations, they explore the gendered realities that shape female experiences.
Episode Highlights:
(02:10) – Introducing Caitlin O’Ryan: Actor, poet, and the woman behind At What Point
(05:00) – The viral poem that struck a chord with millions
(07:15) – The unseen cost of being a woman: Hyper-vigilance as second nature
(12:30) – The paradox of women’s safety: Taxi vs. Walking Home Alone
(15:45) – The fine line between politeness and self-preservation
(20:10) – How women are conditioned to shrink themselves for others' comfort
(25:00) – Caitlin on imposter syndrome, self-doubt, and the power of authenticity
(30:45) – Finding freedom in creativity and reclaiming childhood curiosity
(35:20) – Caitlin’s advice to her younger self: Stay weird, stay loud, stay you.
About Our Guest: Caitlin O’Ryan
Caitlin O’Ryan is an actor, poet, and podcaster. Best known for her role as Lizzie Wemyss in Outlander, Caitlin has captivated audiences with her heartfelt performances. However, it was her viral poem At What Point that propelled her into the public eye in a new and powerful way.
Originally performed as a spoken word piece, At What Point struck a chord with audiences worldwide, addressing themes of womanhood, societal expectations, and the female experience with raw honesty and emotion. The video of Caitlin performing the poem at London poetry night Spitnights spread rapidly across social media, drawing praise from thousands and garnering widespread coverage from major media outlets, including The Independent, The Guardian, BBC News, Glamour, and Stylist.
Beyond poetry and acting, Caitlin has a flare for storytelling in all its forms, making her mark in the world of podcasts with ‘Have you got your sh*t together?’.
Connect with Caitlin:
🔗 Follow Caitlin on Instagram: @caitlinoryan
🔗 Watch At What Point, written and performed by Caitlin O’Ryan at Spitnights
🎧 Check out Caitlin’s brilliant ‘Have you got your sh*it together’ podcast: IG @hygystpod / Listen here
About your host: Jo Phillips
Jo coaches ambitious women like you to break through career barriers, own their worth, and finally get the career and salary they deserve. Through 1:1 coaching, Jo helps you identify what’s holding you back, to build an unapologetic strategy for success, cheerleading you every step of the way—because you already have what it takes. It’s time to stop waiting and start moving with audacity…
Connect with Jo:
Website: The Woman Behind The Women
Socials: Linkedin / Instagram: @thewomanbehindthewomen
'The Chat Womb' is hosted by Jo Phillips and proudly produced by Decibelle Creative: @decibelle_creative / www.decibellecreative.com
Transcript
>> Caitlin O'Ryan: We are so aware from such a young
Speaker:age that it might happen and that it could happen. And you're
Speaker:constantly being told this as a young girl, like being text
Speaker:by your parents to see where you are as soon as it starts to go dark. Just these subtle
Speaker:messages that you're not safe. As women, we're just
Speaker:so normalised into hyper vigilance constantly.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Hi, thanks for stopping by. We've been waiting
Speaker:for you. Welcome to the chat
Speaker:room, the space for becoming who
Speaker:you were always supposed to be.
Speaker:This is not another fluffy empowerment
Speaker:podcast. This is where we get real
Speaker:about the barriers that hold women like you
Speaker:back. The pay rises. We don't ask for
Speaker:the promotions we're already qualified for,
Speaker:the roles we've been conditioned to shrink ourselves
Speaker:into. I'm Jo
Speaker:Phillips, founder, of the Woman behind the Women, and
Speaker:I'm here to help you see the system,
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: For what it is.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So you stop internalising the bullshit
Speaker:and start moving with audacity.
Speaker:You'll find all the information you need to connect or
Speaker:work with me in the show notes. For now, though, come
Speaker:and take a seat in the chat room because it's time to introduce
Speaker:you to today's guest.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Hello and welcome. It is so good
Speaker:to have you here. And I wanted to introduce to everybody
Speaker:the amazing and awesome and inspiring
Speaker:Caitlin O'Ryan, who is an
Speaker:actor, a poet,
Speaker:podcaster. Well, actually
Speaker:somebody who I met very recently
Speaker:and, I'm so inspired by. Thank you for being here.
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Honestly, that was a
Speaker:great introduction. I do feel like I need to change, like the
Speaker:actor, the poet podcaster, to another P for the
Speaker:actor. But, it's
Speaker:a privilege to be here.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So we, I guess it would be
Speaker:good for people to know kind of how we came across each
Speaker:other.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So I wondered if you might
Speaker:just explore, for everyone a little bit about,
Speaker:I guess, the work that you do and, some of the
Speaker:poetry that you do. because
Speaker:that's how I came across you. And,
Speaker:I was absolutely, oh, my
Speaker:goodness, stunned by the
Speaker:amazing poetry that you
Speaker:write.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: So I. I think I said this to you just before, we started
Speaker:recording. I still find it
Speaker:difficult to call myself a poet.
Speaker:I still find it, I don't know,
Speaker:unearned. maybe. I don't know whether that's because my
Speaker:concept of what a poet is from growing up was
Speaker:stuff that I studied at gcse and, you know, it all felt
Speaker:quite elitist and far away from
Speaker:me. so I guess I
Speaker:started writing things for myself
Speaker:about God from the age of like 16,
Speaker:really. but then only started performing it properly
Speaker:in London on my. The spoken word
Speaker:scene, about two years ago. And
Speaker:I guess I have always written about
Speaker:things. My writing always comes from trying
Speaker:to process things. it's like a form of therapy for
Speaker:me. I like the fact that when you're
Speaker:writing poetry, you're taking like these big
Speaker:overwhelming feelings or concepts and
Speaker:trying to make them as concise as possible. And for me that's
Speaker:just a really useful way for me to sort things out in my
Speaker:brain. but yeah,
Speaker:specifically, I guess when. When I've had to like, give
Speaker:bios to people about the kind of poetry that
Speaker:I write, I find it really hard to.
Speaker:To put it, to categorise it. But I guess people
Speaker:say, see things that I write as being from like
Speaker:a feminist lens. but I would argue that
Speaker:I'm just writing from my own point of view, which
Speaker:obviously being socialised as a woman throughout your
Speaker:entire life is going to be affected by
Speaker:that. and I guess I write
Speaker:often from a place of anger
Speaker:or rage or
Speaker:politics. and so the way in which that
Speaker:we came across each other was that I
Speaker:had written a poem that I don't
Speaker:really have a title for, but I guess I call it that. At
Speaker:what point poem? Because I tend to always go from the first line of the
Speaker:poem, which, you know, I
Speaker:wrote a few months ago, and it was
Speaker:me kind of questioning
Speaker:the way in which women are socialised,
Speaker:particularly in terms of, like, the cost of women
Speaker:in society. And I mean that literally
Speaker:and, figuratively in terms of
Speaker:the actual way in which it is more
Speaker:expensive for women to live within our society.
Speaker:Whether that's trying to look after their safety or
Speaker:just by the fact that we are constantly being
Speaker:advertised to. And we're like, we make up the,
Speaker:you know, the main part of income for advertising
Speaker:and stuff like that, but also
Speaker:just the acceptance that we have
Speaker:that we, are going to be less safe.
Speaker:and just how normal that is for us and how kind of fucked up that is
Speaker:really. so I had wrote it a few months ago and
Speaker:then, about a month ago it
Speaker:got posted on TikTok by, one of the
Speaker:nights that I performed. and
Speaker:very, very quickly it
Speaker:blew up in a way that was very surprising
Speaker:and overwhelming, but also very validating.
Speaker:And I think within a couple of days it had
Speaker:been seen by over a million people on, TikTok. And
Speaker:then it got shared on Twitter where it was seen by over 2
Speaker:million people. And then
Speaker:Instagram similar. And
Speaker:LinkedIn is where. Well, you saw it on TikTok, I
Speaker:think. And then you were the lovely person who took it over to
Speaker:LinkedIn for me, which I don't have. I'm not LinkedIn,
Speaker:clearly. and so, yeah,
Speaker:from that it's been really, you
Speaker:know, overwhelming in a wonderful
Speaker:way in terms of, like, the reception for it. It's
Speaker:obviously relevant, as it
Speaker:always is, but I think particularly at this moment in time, it feels
Speaker:very relevant and pertinent to people. And, response to it
Speaker:has been incredible. Does that answer the question?
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: I think it really super answered the question. And.
Speaker:And the poem that we're talking about, as Caitlin just said, she
Speaker:calls it, at what point? And what caught
Speaker:me instantly, instantly with
Speaker:the poem, at, what point do you tell
Speaker:your daughter that a park is not just for
Speaker:play? And I went,
Speaker:at, what? And off you go then in the poem. And you talk
Speaker:about all of the societal barriers that we have,
Speaker:the expectations that sit and fit around
Speaker:women, the challenges that we
Speaker:have. And I think the poem might be, what, three
Speaker:minutes long? Does that sound right?
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: Yeah, just over three.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: I think it's like three.
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: And it's 20 or something.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: It's 20. So kind of maybe 450,
Speaker:500 words. I must
Speaker:have watched that poem seven, times.
Speaker:Eight times
Speaker:thinking, this.
Speaker:This hurts to listen to.
Speaker:This is so incredibly
Speaker:powerful,
Speaker:but so, vulnerable.
Speaker:and I guess from there
Speaker:I was totally hooked on who is Caitlyn
Speaker:O'Brien and what is the story about
Speaker:this poem? Because all the work I do, as you know, is
Speaker:with. And we see so many of these
Speaker:societal challenges. I see women
Speaker:actually internalise the societal challenges. I see them thinking it's them.
Speaker:Yeah, it's my fault. No, it's. It's a me
Speaker:thing. Everything from. It's now darker at
Speaker:night and so women can't run and so we pay the pro. You
Speaker:know, you might not go out in the evening to exercise as you would have done in the
Speaker:summer, and so you end up putting on weight
Speaker:or your mental health gets worse.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: You can't physically now out the door.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: I don't know. We don't know if this gets
Speaker:recognised by people. I don't know if they
Speaker:understand that, don't. If they see that we have
Speaker:to alter our
Speaker:schedules
Speaker:in order to achieve something that
Speaker:a man, could go out and do any time of the
Speaker:day. And I was, I was actually. I went for a
Speaker:walk the Other day. And we have a really
Speaker:narrow. There's a very narrow footpath that then
Speaker:takes you through, onto some fields.
Speaker:And, there was a guy in a suit
Speaker:with his briefcase. And I live
Speaker:two minutes from the train station. I can tell you
Speaker:that all that guy was doing. Caitlin was going to the train station. I
Speaker:can tell you that's all he was doing. That is all he was
Speaker:doing.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: But, he came on the footpath behind me.
Speaker:It's got fences either side. And
Speaker:I stopped on the footpath, turned to him
Speaker:and said, do you want to walk in front of me?
Speaker:Because having footsteps behind me.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Even in broad daylight doesn't work.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And I guess I wondered if you would
Speaker:maybe talk us through a little bit more
Speaker:about where your poem came
Speaker:from. So I guess at what point did. At
Speaker:what point arrive?
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: Yeah. All right. Very well done. yeah,
Speaker:it's. It's so crazy. And I
Speaker:think, I
Speaker:consume a lot of, like, you know,
Speaker:podcasts and I.
Speaker:This is something that interests me a lot. Like I. I
Speaker:have to reference, Jamila
Speaker:Jamil's podcast, I weigh. Because I got
Speaker:into that during lockdown. I listened
Speaker:to it like, every week. and she is,
Speaker:you know, she's so eloquent in talking about stuff
Speaker:like this, and I've learned so
Speaker:much. And, you know, I think.
Speaker:I think the problem is that, like, you grow up as
Speaker:a girl and, you know, you
Speaker:only start to unpack these things as you start to slightly
Speaker:get older. And, you know, it's even stuff such
Speaker:as, you know, the fact
Speaker:that. The fact that in primary
Speaker:school, I don't know whether it's the same now, but, you know, when I was in
Speaker:primary school, there was an expectation, or high school even, there was an
Speaker:expectation that girls wear skirts and, like,
Speaker:boys wear trousers. And even that
Speaker:is, like subtle
Speaker:messaging to girls that they can't run around
Speaker:because if they fall over, their bare legs are going
Speaker:to get scratched. You know,
Speaker:just subtle stuff like that. That
Speaker:amongst, other things, amongst having your legs out and that feeling very
Speaker:vulnerable as well. But just these subtle messages
Speaker:to girls that, ah,
Speaker:that you're not as, I don't
Speaker:know, resilient as boys in some way,
Speaker:or the subtle messaging that it is
Speaker:unsafe. And, you know,
Speaker:I. I've had things
Speaker:happen to me throughout my life. one of which has not
Speaker:been. I've had loads of things happen to me throughout my life, but one
Speaker:of which has not been getting dragged off the street.
Speaker:Right. But we are so
Speaker:aware from Such a young age that it might
Speaker:happen and that it could happen. And you're constantly being told this
Speaker:as a young girl, like, you know, being
Speaker:text by your parents to see where you are as soon as it starts to go dark. Just these
Speaker:subtle messages that you're not safe. And I think what happens is, as
Speaker:women, we are just so norma normalised into hyper
Speaker:vigilance constantly. and
Speaker:so that being aware of that, being
Speaker:aware of like, the,
Speaker:you know, the fact that
Speaker:we spend so much money and have to. Have
Speaker:to spend so much time considering how we're going to get home from
Speaker:certain events in the evening that men don't have to
Speaker:do. And, what is the safest way to do that? And like, my
Speaker:battery is constantly dying and the fear
Speaker:that, like, if my battery dies, who would I contact
Speaker:if I got into a horrible situation, even though I
Speaker:know, I know the route home because I've lived in the same house, you
Speaker:know, just having to think of problem solving
Speaker:constantly. And the stakes are so
Speaker:high because it's your life that's on the line or
Speaker:it's your safety or whatever.
Speaker:And, you know, even the fact that, like, we
Speaker:have to spend more on potentially getting taxis
Speaker:and then sitting in a taxi and being aware that
Speaker:you're not safe in the taxi because you've essentially given
Speaker:your safety to a stranger who
Speaker:is more likely, more often than
Speaker:not, a man. and, you know, that's one of the lines that I have in the
Speaker:poem is, you know, M.
Speaker:But it's about. It's about, Ubers. And that kind
Speaker:of.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: It's brilliant.
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: That line even makes its profits as the
Speaker:cons of walking home alone far outweighs the
Speaker:pros. And does she know that she'll pay for a taxi to
Speaker:avoid getting murdered by a stranger, then spend the entire journey aware of
Speaker:the danger that this happened stranger will finally murder her. like
Speaker:that's. It's just the
Speaker:constant hyper vigilance, I think. And
Speaker:to answer your question as to why I wrote it, I think
Speaker:I just constantly had these things floating around in my head. And as
Speaker:soon as you. As soon as you lift the veil, you
Speaker:just see it everywhere, right? And, it makes me
Speaker:a very difficult person today, I think, because I do
Speaker:date, straight men and I can't not see the
Speaker:politics constantly. I just can't not see it.
Speaker:And, it's constantly just going around in my head. and so at what
Speaker:point came, I
Speaker:guess, off the back of
Speaker:like, Sara Everard, if I'm. If I'm completely
Speaker:honest. And how. Because I
Speaker:lived, you know, I lived around the corner
Speaker:from the street in which Sara Everard was taken
Speaker:from. And so I was really aware
Speaker:of that it could have been
Speaker:me or my friends at that point,
Speaker:and just how close it felt,
Speaker:to me. But also all the other
Speaker:women who. Things like this are happening
Speaker:to you constantly. And so I kind
Speaker:of had this like, percolating in my head. And then
Speaker:I, also tend to write in my
Speaker:room and opposite my room there is a playground, a school
Speaker:playground. So I think quite literally I was like
Speaker:looking at. There was a park there. and I think quite literally I was
Speaker:just thinking, you know, it was getting dark and I was like, you know, at what point
Speaker:is. Is the park no longer just a park
Speaker:for girls? And it's. It you're being told that you have to avoid
Speaker:it. and how sad that is that we can't just
Speaker:enjoy things. That there's always this element of danger as well.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And this piece around having park opposite you
Speaker:and you looking at the park knowing that you
Speaker:were living around the corner from where Sara Everard
Speaker:was taken.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So you're. You're literally living
Speaker:the fear M. That
Speaker:we're all expected to live
Speaker:with.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And to deal with.
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: Yeah. And it's. I think you're just,
Speaker:you're just constantly aware of your own fragility, aren't you? And
Speaker:I, I don't think it's necessarily something that
Speaker:men can relate to in that same way,
Speaker:that, that the worst
Speaker:could happen and the worst is
Speaker:really extreme.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And there were so many lines in that poem
Speaker:that I listened to. And I listen, I can only tell
Speaker:you. So if anybody's listening, they can find your poem
Speaker:across all the channels that you've just
Speaker:mentioned. But I guess as I was
Speaker:listening to it, it just highlighted again for
Speaker:me why we,
Speaker:why women behave in the way that we do when it comes
Speaker:to every area of our life.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And this isn't to say that we're male bashing. This has got
Speaker:nothing to do with saying that every
Speaker:male, causes
Speaker:danger. But it's about, from a societal
Speaker:perspective, understanding just what some of you know, when you lift the
Speaker:veil. These are just some of the considerations
Speaker:that we look at every day before we
Speaker:go about our lives.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: And then the added complexity that we're like socialised to be
Speaker:polite constantly and nice. And I think that's another line
Speaker:that I kind of have in it, is that like at the
Speaker:same time as constantly having to be aware of our safety and
Speaker:security, we're also getting message that we have to be
Speaker:polite to people. But then it's politeness
Speaker:that stops us from trusting our gut. We've been
Speaker:so split off from our gut instinct about our
Speaker:safety. So you know.
Speaker:Yeah, I think sometimes when you can
Speaker:sense that you're in danger and your
Speaker:instinct is to run or to get out of that
Speaker:situation. The other messaging is you have to
Speaker:be nice to this person. You don't want to offend this person.
Speaker:Like so. So sometimes you're
Speaker:caught in this space where you're making yourself
Speaker:vulnerable because you've also been
Speaker:socialised to be the nice girl and to be the kind
Speaker:girl and to, to
Speaker:allow your boundaries to be overstepped. Be that a
Speaker:man putting his hand on your leg or your lower back,
Speaker:like all of those kinds of things, the things that make you feel
Speaker:uncomfortable. We've been so socialised that our com.
Speaker:That is secondary to
Speaker:men's and to everyone else's around us.
Speaker:and to be the caregivers and all these kinds of things. I mean the list
Speaker:goes on and on and on and you know, it's a 3 minute 20
Speaker:poem and if I was to truly sit and
Speaker:write all of the ills, not only to you know,
Speaker:us in the Western world, but to
Speaker:women across the globe, it would never
Speaker:end. It would be a non ending poem.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And it really, that poem just resonates with
Speaker:me and I can, I can sit and listen to it and every time I hear something
Speaker:new, M. Every time I hear
Speaker:something different. Yeah from a line or
Speaker:I'm reminded of something that's maybe happened during my journey or my
Speaker:clients journeys.
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: I think, I think like when I was writing it as
Speaker:well, like I'm so, I'm so aware of
Speaker:not wanting to present myself as like the angry
Speaker:feminist. Because I'm so aware of
Speaker:like how off putting that can
Speaker:be like to. And it can
Speaker:be alienating. Right. And like yes,
Speaker:I'm angry. Like I write from a place of like anger.
Speaker:But I also want the
Speaker:message to be palatable and I want it to
Speaker:invite people in. Like
Speaker:when I perform it, I try to
Speaker:perform it quite neutrally and just like as
Speaker:facts because I think if I was to just like
Speaker:stand there and rage it, I don't
Speaker:think it would have the same impact that
Speaker:I would want it to because people would just be like oh, she's just like
Speaker:angry, like whatever. But
Speaker:I think I Think
Speaker:why this poem and, why that that particular
Speaker:video of that poem took off,
Speaker:I think is because, yes, there's a
Speaker:vulnerability to it, and yes, the writing is good,
Speaker:but I think it's because I kind of joked to my
Speaker:friend about it. I was like, well, Dale, I knew this was going to go viral. I'd have dressed a bit nicer
Speaker:and I'd, like, put a bit more makeup on. But I think it's
Speaker:the. I think it's the authenticity of it. Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: At the end, it was the authenticity of it. And I think it was the fact that it was
Speaker:like, just someone standing there and just kind of saying it,
Speaker:like, in quite a neutral way that I think
Speaker:men have been able to consume it as well and to not
Speaker:particularly feel like they're being
Speaker:shamed, but more just like, this is just
Speaker:how it is. And I've had a lot of men
Speaker:messaging me like, oh, ah, wow. Like, I never thought of it
Speaker:like that, you know, So I think
Speaker:that's a part of it as well.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Just absorbing your. Your. Your lens and
Speaker:your mindset on it. Because I think you're right. It's not
Speaker:about shaming
Speaker:the masses. That's not what it's about. You know,
Speaker:allyship and everybody understanding the challenges
Speaker:that women face and is so key. And I think, you know,
Speaker:we look at what's just happened with the presidential election, and we know
Speaker:that women's rights are going to be
Speaker:reversed totally, incredibly,
Speaker:just to a point of we're going to go back 50
Speaker:years. And, we seem to be okay with
Speaker:it. And it's another blow.
Speaker:It's another blow for women. It's another decision
Speaker:that she can't make.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: Yeah. And, Yeah, I just, you
Speaker:know, I think the poem. The poem
Speaker:is like the things that go on in my head. Right. But
Speaker:it's like, I would. I would actually say that it kind of
Speaker:touches on each point kind of lightly
Speaker:because, you know, at one point I talk about a,
Speaker:About, like, reproductive
Speaker:health or the fact that, you know, women are expected
Speaker:to pay for the pill
Speaker:or, you know, contraception and stuff like that. But that's a whole
Speaker:other poem. Like, m. My.
Speaker:You know, the stuff that I know about. And, from my own experience, the stuff
Speaker:that I know about contraception. That is a whole other poem in terms of,
Speaker:like, once you get into the complexities of, like,
Speaker:it just being handed to you, no one taking into
Speaker:consideration your previous health issues or
Speaker:your family health issues or the coil, God
Speaker:forbid we get into that Conversation. Because that is, like,
Speaker:masochistic, that sort of stuff. Like what they do to
Speaker:women without any kind of, you know, pain
Speaker:relief. so, you know,
Speaker:you could. You could kind of hone in on any aspect of it
Speaker:and create a longer poem for it. But,
Speaker:Again, it's a 3 minute 20 poem
Speaker:and it's just the showreel,
Speaker:if you will, of what it's like to be a woman in this
Speaker:society.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: It's. It really genuinely is. And
Speaker:this is, you know, you don't need my validation, but I
Speaker:work with women all day, every day. It's my passion,
Speaker:it's my mission. and you really shone a
Speaker:spotlight. So I wanted to say a massive thank you
Speaker:because, well, you know how grateful I am. M. Because you know, that as soon
Speaker:as I found out where I could meet you.
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: Thank you. Like, honestly, it's just. It means a lot that it
Speaker:resonates with so many people because as well, like,
Speaker:it. It was such a funny thing because as it was blowing up, like,
Speaker:obviously, obviously it was validating and,
Speaker:you know, to. To be quite frank, like, it's.
Speaker:It's been a lot in terms of
Speaker:me knowing how vulnerable it is and therefore it
Speaker:invites vulnerability in the comment section. Right. Like,
Speaker:I think it's been so touching how moved people have
Speaker:been and they had wanted to share
Speaker:that with me. and I have wanted to honour
Speaker:that. and that is quite
Speaker:overwhelming at the same time as being very
Speaker:aware that there is like, the Andrew Tate part
Speaker:of the Internet that I was kind of dredging it,
Speaker:falling into. And, so I was kind
Speaker:of like, trying to
Speaker:stay very on top of what the comments were in case it
Speaker:suddenly did end up in the manosphere and
Speaker:I'd receive horrible messages and thankfully that hasn't
Speaker:happened. but that's even a
Speaker:crazy thing to even think that you have to navigate, you
Speaker:know, and you know that the
Speaker:comments have been positive. Like,
Speaker:overwhelmingly positive. which has been amazing.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: I really like the word you use there about manosphere. Is that what he
Speaker:said?
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: What does that mean?
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: Like, the. I don't know, like the manosphere of, like,
Speaker:the Internet, where it's just all the. The men.
Speaker:Because obviously we're in our, Like,
Speaker:sadly, I think it's become quite evident that we've been in our little echo
Speaker:chamber of, like, people who think like us. And there's a
Speaker:whole other. Yeah, clearly a majority out
Speaker:there who. Who are not thinking like us. And
Speaker:the thought that it could be in those
Speaker:spaces being, you know,
Speaker:picked apart by
Speaker:people with horrible views is kind of terrifying at
Speaker:times.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: I'm so pleased that you've had positivity and,
Speaker:feedback and validation from it because it
Speaker:absolutely hit and it absolutely resonated. And I think when
Speaker:I say, when it went on to LinkedIn,
Speaker:it was so interesting, the number of
Speaker:people who reposted you, who looked
Speaker:at you, who commented, they were just like, wow, this is
Speaker:absolutely awesome. This is amazing.
Speaker:And I know that anybody who'd seen your poem, certainly on the
Speaker:LinkedIn platform, wanted to know a bit more about you, who
Speaker:you were, where you'd come from, what the poem was about.
Speaker:Kind of for the, for, for them or for us on the platform,
Speaker:we hadn't necessarily seen you or been introduced to
Speaker:you. So I wondered if I could ask
Speaker:you the same questions that I ask every guest that's good
Speaker:enough to come and say hello on the chat.
Speaker:So I wondered. I think we all know that you
Speaker:did go to university, but I wonder
Speaker:what impact that's had so far.
Speaker:Career, if any.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: You already know you're capable of more. You don't
Speaker:need permission, you need strategy.
Speaker:Let's make it happen. Drop me an email at,
Speaker:jomanbehindthewomen
Speaker:uh.com
Speaker:or find me online. You'll find
Speaker:everything you need to get in touch with me in the show notes.
Speaker:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: So. So I didn't go to university in like the traditional
Speaker:sense. I went to drama school, in
Speaker:Oxford. and, so what that
Speaker:looks like is, drama schools
Speaker:are like institutions, I
Speaker:guess, like conservatoires. so
Speaker:rather than it being, like theory
Speaker:based, it was very practical based. so
Speaker:I took, I auditioned after
Speaker:college. Didn't, get in because it
Speaker:tends to be quite difficult to get in first year.
Speaker:And then I went when I was 19
Speaker:to Oxford School of Drama, which was,
Speaker:yeah, purely practical
Speaker:based. So you would be in drama school
Speaker:every single day, you know, 8:00am
:30pm and
:those classes, those 19 people in a year,
:I spent every single minute of the day with those
:people, which, on the whole size,
:but, we would do like, you know,
:Shakespeare classes. It's very traditional
:theatre course, Shakespeare
:voice, movement classes,
:and then, you know, we'd study texts of plays that
:we were performing and stuff like that. And
:that was, you know, five days a week and that was for three
:years and then I
:graduated. But I guess
:within that, like, whilst I
:didn't do academia,
:you're constantly reading,
:you know, Shakespeare or quite dense
:text, which And I guess, you know,
:the. @ GSE when I studied Shakespeare, I didn't get it
:at all. But when you're studying it at drama school
:and you, you learn the language and you
:learn kind of the way that he wrote and that it is
:poetry, you are able
:to access it and then you basically just see that it's
:a, it's the human experience. And even though it was
:written like, God, I don't know, I
:definitely should know when it was written. even though it's written so long ago,
:you can still relate to it because it's about power and
:it's about love and it's about jealousy and it's all these human
:emotions that we all experience. And I guess that's why Shakespeare
:is timeless for so many people. So whilst
:I didn't do, like, an English literature degree, I was
:immersing myself in arguably the
:greatest writer of all time. and
:funnily, I didn't write at all during those
:three years because I felt very gay, disconnected from myself because
:I didn't particularly enjoy drama school for certain
:reasons. but I guess my
:proximity to it was that I was
:absorbing it, whether I was, you
:know, choosing to or not. And
:then what happens at drama school is that you,
:your graduating show is like a showcase to
:agents, and to people within the acting
:industry in London in the hopes that you'll get
:picked up and,
:they'll represent you and then you'll start going for auditions. And then I was
:fortunate that I got an agent when I graduated,
:moved to London, and then I was, you
:know, working five jobs to pay the rent
:like everyone does when they first
:move to London. And it was exhausted
:and that. But then I was auditioning at the same time. And then off the
:back of one of the auditions, I then
:landed the job that I'd been doing for the
:past six years, and I've just wrapped on it a month ago,
:which was a show called Outlander.
:and I was playing a supporting role in that. And
:that truly changed my life.
:Not only because of acting, but,
:to be quite honest, like,
:before I got the job, I was thinking I was going to have to leave
:London because it was just.
:I wasn't able to
:participate in it because I was just
:constantly trying to afford staying alive.
:And so what this show did was
:facilitated my financial
:security and then also, to be
:honest, gave me space to
:explore other pursuits. So,
:like, you know, that's what they say about money, right? Money
:gives you options, like, and it,
:it gave me space which is
:a luxury and time to work on
:myself and to listen
:to and consume and read the books
:that I want to read and therefore
:space to write and, you know, and
:platform and to do a podcast and, you know, all of those
:things. So it, it
:was, you know, it was
:hard work but it's
:also facilitated, like immense
:privilege for me to be able to do the things that I love and to
:have access to those things.
:>> Jo Phillips: And your story is just one of
:graft. And it's so interesting that
:you don't mention at all the level of talent that you
:have. So interesting that you
:don't recognise across any of that journey. Oh, I
:auditioned for Outlander. I got it. It facilitated where
:I am. So
:interesting, isn't it, that that
:humility comes, through in everything we do?
:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah.
:>> Jo Phillips: So interesting.
:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: So I guess, I guess so, I
:guess. And I'm quite honest, like, I think
:with Outlander, it still feels like a bit of a
:fluke to me. Like
:maybe because I had a difficult time at
:drama school and I left with less confidence than when I
:went in and I think I started to believe some of the
:messaging that I was being told by the teachers there, if I'm quite
:honest, that I wasn't good enough and that
:like m. My voice teacher told
:me that I was never going to work because my voice was so awful. I was
:thinking about that this morning and I was like, it's so funny that like
:poetry is literally just me using my voice. And
:she said that, I
:absorbed that. And so
:therefore when I got the job for
:Outlander, because I got it off in self state and I don't know if
:people know what that means. But like with
:acting often, like sometimes you will go into
:the room and you will meet the director and the
:writer and you'll get to audition and then maybe you'll get a
:recall and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But
:more often than not now the first round is the self tape, which
:means that you get sent the script, you do it at home on your own, then you
:send it off and then maybe you'll get invited into a recall at which point you'll meet the
:people, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I sent off a self
:tape and I got the job off the self tape. So I never met
:anyone. So whilst that was incredible, it
:was also me being like, they've made a mistake
:because they haven't met me in person. So as soon as they meet
:me they're going to realise that they made a mistake. And
:and that, that stayed with me for, I would
:say, two or three years
:of me actually being on the show. I was still waiting to be told
:that they'd made a mistake, and that they were just. It was
:like some charitable thing that they were doing. Part B force
:was that they had to, like, be kind to someone, you know?
:so most of the clients I.
:>> Jo Phillips: Work with have imposter phenomenon, right? This, this
:pernicious, feeling of self doubt that I'm going to get
:caught out, that they, they don't really
:recognise that it's not. They can't possibly recognise me for
:me, and it's so interesting
:and so I wonder. It was just. It's.
:Yeah, it's so interesting. And it's always the intelligent women
:who are accomplished that have that carry
:this. So I wondered if you were going to
:give your younger self one
:piece of advice, one piece of guidance, if you
:were to whisper in her ear at, a younger
:age, what would you say to
:her? What would be your
:mantra for her? What would, what does she need to
:know as a woman in the world?
:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: I think
:it would be something along the lines
:of, like, stay weird.
:Like, Or
:like. Because I think as a
:kid I was weird.
:Like, I was curious and I was
:playful and, I did not care
:what anyone thought about me. Like, I,
:you know, I, I hate this, but I was like a
:tomboy, whatever that means, you know, I was
:just a kid, that got categorised into,
:like, being boyish, I guess. But I think what
:that meant was that I was louder than some of the
:other girls and I was like, a bit braver than
:some of the other girls and I would like, climb trees
:and, you know, I watched Pirates of the
:Caribbean and got obsessed with it and wore a bandana
:on my head to school for like two months
:because I just loved, I loved it.
:And I think I had quite a
:unique style and taste and
:whatever, and that got chipped away at
:because it wasn't normal.
:And I can remember, particularly
:around like, puberty,
:when you go to high school and you suddenly become so
:self conscious and because I went to a really small primary school where there
:was like 90 children in the entire school,
:right? So I was one of nine in my year. So I think it
:was more accepting of, who you were. But then as soon as I
:went to high school and There was like 2,000 kids in the entire school,
:I suddenly became so aware of wanting to fit in, which
:I think so many people go through in the awkward
:teen years. and,
:Like, I lost. I really lost myself there
:because, you know, other kids
:would say that I was like an attention
:seeker or all these. And I wasn't. I was
:just confident, like. And I think the
:messaging that I was getting from other girls, to be quite
:frank, was that I needed to be
:smaller in order to not
:take up their space, because
:of the messaging that they'd received. And, you know, boys don't
:receive this at school. And
:so high school, I hated, because I felt so
:confined to having to be this, like, you
:know, matchstick Lowry
:drawing that just went to school and just got on with it.
:Right. and where I was able to. To
:play and to find that creativity was
:a place like the youth theatre that I went to, which was such a safe
:haven for stuff like that. But
:I always just think, like, who could I have been
:if, I had just stayed, like,
:playful and. And, you know, I think, to
:be quite honest, so much of
:being an adult and, you know, particularly having
:left drama school has been trying to reconnect
:with that thing. And I think
:adults would be so much happier if
:they saw a tree and they just decided to climb
:it because they wanted to climb it and they weren't worried what all the other adults
:would think of them, you know? I was speaking to. Do
:you know Holly McNish, the poet? Have you read any of her stuff?
:>> Jo Phillips: Ah, I need to. I'm making a Note now.
:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: Holly McNish is an incredible poet. and
:she. You'll adore her. Just
:the poems that she writes are so powerful and.
:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah.
:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: but she. She's got a kid and I was speaking to her the other day and she
:was saying how,
:how she loves roller
:skating, but doing that as an
:adult, you get judged for doing those sorts of
:things. And she thinks it's, like, because they want
:you to pay for access to those things. So rather than
:going to, like, a park and having to go on the
:zip wire with her kid, adults are
:paying to go to these massive, like, zip wire
:experiences where you have to pay loads of money
:to access the joy that you had as a
:kid that you could just get down the local park. But it's a bit weird if you go and
:do that on your own, like, or going down, like, the slide
:at the swimming bath, you know,
:no idea how I've gotten to this, but I think
:just. That's sad, isn't it? I
:just wish that, like, I
:had kept that sense
:of, like, who I am, because, I
:think so much of the work that I've done over the past years is trying to refind that
:thing that was taken away from me in those, like, malleable
:years.
:>> Jo Phillips: It's almost in the process of re becoming, isn't it? In the process of
:re becoming who you were born to be.
:And society pushes and shoves us and has
:expectations and, wants us to sit in a certain lane and
:decides that they want to define who we are.
:And I think it's so important to be able
:to re become and reconnect to who
:we truly are. And that's the power of
:authenticity. That's the power.
:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: And it's like this, you know, this, like,
:obsession that we have over here with, like, what's
:cool or, like, what's cringe. And
:actually, like, the older that I've got,
:like, what's cool is someone who's, like,
:unapologetically themselves and, like,
:they're not trying to please other people's opinion of what they are. They like what they like,
:and that's really cool.
:>> Jo Phillips: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
:Exactly. And I would absolutely employ
:you to keep
:trying to refine yourself and reconnecting with
:the weird, because your weird is
:wonderful. Your weird is intelligent.
:It's fascinating, it's immersing,
:it's beautiful. Your weird
:is the type of weird that the world needs more
:of. and I just can't thank
:you enough for joining me on the podcast, for spending your time with
:me. I know everybody will be
:absolutely bowled over by listening to your poem and to your
:story, and I just can't thank you enough for your time. So thank
:you so much for joining me. That everybody has been.
:Caitlin O'Ryan. Thank you.
:>> Caitlin O'Ryan: Thank you so much.
:>> Jo Phillips: As you were.
