Episode 1
Breaking Barriers: Women, Work, and the Power of Male Allyship with Lee Chambers
"Every time we choose compassion the world gets a bit better.” - Lee Chambers, Male Allies UK
"It really hit home for me—if this is what we’re allowing to be revisited, what message are we sending to young boys?" - Jo Phillips, The Woman Behind The Women
In this very first episode of The Chat Womb, Jo Phillips sits down with Lee Chambers, founder of Male Allies UK, for an insightful discussion on male allyship, masculinity, and the challenges men and young boys face today.
They unpack how societal expectations shape masculinity—spoiler alert: it’s more than just action figures and football—and why education is crucial in fostering healthy relationships, consent awareness, and gender equality. Lee shares powerful anecdotes from his work with boys in schools, shedding light on the double-edged nature of online communities in shaping young minds.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone passionate about gender equality and the role men play in creating a more inclusive society. Get ready to challenge your perceptions and rethink what it truly means to be a man.
Episode Highlights:
(00:00) – Welcome to The Chat Womb: Tackling the barriers that hold women back
(01:11) – Introducing Lee Chambers from Male Allies UK
(01:45) – Lee’s work with boys in schools: Shaping them into better men
(06:45) – A shocking school performance: Unpacking sexism and misogyny in education
(13:04) – The consent conversation: Why some young boys believe "yes" means forever (19:11) – University and its impact: Personal reflections from Lee
(21:03) – One question Lee wishes people would ask him about University Challenge
(22:42) – The benefits of compassion for men from an inclusion perspective
(24:51) – Lee’s advice to his 21-year-old self
About Our Guest: Lee Chambers
Lee Chambers is an award-winning psychologist, speaker, and the founder of Male Allies UK, an organisation dedicated to challenging outdated gender norms and fostering male allyship in workplaces and schools. With a background in psychology and leadership, Lee works closely with young boys, helping them navigate modern masculinity and build healthier relationships.
🔗 Connect with Lee Chambers
Join the conversation! Connect with your host, Jo Phillips:
The Woman Behind The Women website
Linkedin / Instagram: @thewomanbehindthewomen
'The Chat Womb' is hosted by Jo Phillips and proudly produced by Decibelle Creative: @decibelle_creative / www.decibellecreative.com
Transcript
>> Lee Chambers: Today's discomfort is tomorrow's growth. And
Speaker:actually there's a reason why we're investing time
Speaker:in expanding our perspective, in thinking how we
Speaker:partner with difference to create more of
Speaker:a difference, and how actually we can create our
Speaker:legacy in our everyday actions.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Hi.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Thanks for stopping by. We've been waiting for you.
Speaker:Welcome to the chat room, the
Speaker:space for becoming who you were always supposed to be.
Speaker:This is not another fluffy empowerment
Speaker:podcast. This is where we get real
Speaker:about the barriers that hold women like you
Speaker:back. The pay rises we don't ask for
Speaker:the promotions we're already qualified for,
Speaker:the roles we've been conditioned to shrink ourselves
Speaker:into. I'm Jo
Speaker:Phillips, founder, of the Woman behind the Women. And
Speaker:I'm here to help you see the system, for what it
Speaker:is. So you stop internalising the
Speaker:bullshit and start moving with
Speaker:audacity. You'll
Speaker:find all the information you need to connect or work with
Speaker:me in the show notes.
Speaker:For now though, come and take a seat in the chat room because it's time
Speaker:to introduce you to today's guest.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Hello, and thank you so, so much for joining
Speaker:me. So today I welcome a guy
Speaker:who most of you will have seen, will know all
Speaker:about it. Is the gentleman that needs zero
Speaker:introductions as far as I'm concerned, and many of us are
Speaker:concerned, which is Lee Chambers from Male Allies uk.
Speaker:Morning, Lee. Thank you so much for being with me.
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: Great to join you, Joe. And let's, let's have a great
Speaker:conversation.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Let's do this. So for those
Speaker:who maybe follow Lee, for those who work with
Speaker:Lee, for those who know his story, as I've said, he needs zero
Speaker:introduction. But for those who are, just on their journey of understanding
Speaker:allyship and advocacy in the workplace and beyond.
Speaker:Wanted just to introduce Lee a little bit more formally before we
Speaker:get into some of the goop and the good stuff, before we get a bit
Speaker:messy. So Lee is, is
Speaker:responsible for and spends his whole working days engaging
Speaker:men and inclusion, building skills of
Speaker:allyship across corporates globally and
Speaker:working with boys in schools to help to
Speaker:educate right from the very early
Speaker:years so that we can grow and we can evolve and we can be
Speaker:the allies that every single individ your
Speaker:needs.
Speaker:I wanted to get straight into it, Lee, if that's all right with you. And I
Speaker:wanted to go straight into this piece around working with
Speaker:boys in school.
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: Yep, it's, it's a lot of work, Jo.
Speaker:It's a lot of work, but it's, it's really meaningful. but
Speaker:yeah, we Kind of. We've realised that there's some real
Speaker:challenges for the next generation of boys coming through.
Speaker:We, did a whole range of listening sessions with boys all
Speaker:the way from quite exclusive private schools all the
Speaker:way to very deprived schools that are, according to
Speaker:Ofsted, in special measures. and what we found
Speaker:is that boys across the country are facing a
Speaker:real set of challenges around how to become a man.
Speaker:The messages they get around manhood,
Speaker:the kind of, the spaces for them to take risks and
Speaker:learn how to become a man. and many of them, we
Speaker:found that half of the boys we surveyed said their online
Speaker:world is more interesting, more rewarding and more
Speaker:engaging than, than real life. And the
Speaker:massive pull of the connection, the
Speaker:belonging and feeling listened to and heard that
Speaker:online communities can create for young boys.
Speaker:Now, naturally, many of those online communities are not
Speaker:even on front, facing social media. They are in
Speaker:discord groups, telegram groups, rumour
Speaker:communities, completely aware from
Speaker:what parents can monitor, completely aware
Speaker:from what we see out, in the mainstream media or even
Speaker:on the social media that we use. And
Speaker:many boys have spoken about feeling that's a lack of space for
Speaker:them. They've seen lots of things for girls popping
Speaker:up, girls coding sessions, girls skateboarding
Speaker:classes, girls in grassroots, all
Speaker:different grassroots sports. But a lot of the boys we've spoken to
Speaker:have said, you know, our sports,
Speaker:facilities, we've lost them. The youth club closed in the
Speaker:pandemic. we, you know, we don't, we
Speaker:can't hang about on the street because we get scenes antisocial.
Speaker:And we've seen videos on social media of people running around with
Speaker:knives. I don't feel that safe. So I'm gonna sit in my room,
Speaker:put my headset on and play some games and
Speaker:speak to some of my friends. and many young
Speaker:boys hear that, you know, being a man is
Speaker:bad, being a man is toxic. And they
Speaker:feel like they've not been a man yet. So it's really
Speaker:hard to feel like they're being blamed and it doesn't feel very
Speaker:fair. so, yeah, young boys, you know, the
Speaker:educational attainment is dropping, in
Speaker:school, but also more boys are dropping
Speaker:out of university than ever before. and
Speaker:while they become men and they go into the
Speaker:workplace, they have a relative set of advantages and
Speaker:barriers that they don't face because they are male. The, next
Speaker:generation of boys are in a real difficult transition
Speaker:point because so many
Speaker:influences on what shape their behaviours,
Speaker:their beliefs and their attitudes. And they
Speaker:use the Internet for personal development to understand,
Speaker:you know, how to, how to become a man. But also they
Speaker:search for personal development for boys.
Speaker:So how do I get bigger muscles? How do I speak to
Speaker:girls? You know, how do I get a good, good career
Speaker:so I can get a nice car and a nice house? Like the
Speaker:influences, how can I, how can I make
Speaker:money? even down to, you know,
Speaker:what's it like going to secondary school? My parents have
Speaker:divorced, what do I do? And all these such
Speaker:terms are now kind of transition points that
Speaker:online influencers, forum moderators and
Speaker:video game streamers use to pull
Speaker:boys into their communities and tell them that the
Speaker:system's broken. But in these
Speaker:communities, don't listen to the mainstream media,
Speaker:don't really listen to your parents, they don't get it. But
Speaker:in our community we will be a source of news,
Speaker:a source of truth and we'll tell you how
Speaker:to personally develop and become a man. And
Speaker:that's an awful lot of influence for a very small subset of people
Speaker:to have over our next generation.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: It's so interesting that the school environment,
Speaker:the education environment is critical
Speaker:to help shape our next generation
Speaker:of leadership, our next generation of men in the workplace, full
Speaker:stop. And I think I'd mentioned to you before we started
Speaker:recording and for those who don't know, by the way, I am Lee Chambers
Speaker:biggest fan. I fangirl, I throw myself at him whenever I see
Speaker:him. So to get the chance to ask Lee these questions is.
Speaker:I'm all over it. So, so keep listening.
Speaker:So the if I reverse back maybe two
Speaker:or three weeks ago, my son is in a secondary school in Hertfordshire.
Speaker:So let's go. Predominantly white, middle class,
Speaker:privileged. It was previously a grammar school, it now
Speaker:has 1200 all boys.
Speaker:they've pupil written three different
Speaker:dramas across the years from year seven,
Speaker:so entry, entry level at secondary school through to
Speaker:year 12. So just about to exit and head to
Speaker:uni, 45 minute long
Speaker:dramas. The two
Speaker:dramas either side of the one that I'm going to talk to you about were relatively
Speaker:benign, were very well written and were very well
Speaker:acted and really nice as a parent to go and say the
Speaker:middle, the middle, performance
Speaker:was. I'm not sure if it was written purely by
Speaker:pupils but at some point somebody in that school has signed it
Speaker:off, an
Speaker:adult. It was judged, Lee,
Speaker:by two women and the performance
Speaker:was about bouncers, so doorman
Speaker:security on nightclubs in the
Speaker:1990s. So it's
Speaker:all boys that are delivering the performance and the
Speaker:boys swap characters. So they move from being the
Speaker:dormant and their Observations of those who are in the
Speaker:club after the club having had a drink and those
Speaker:in the queue prior to entry and they swap from being
Speaker:the doorman to be in the To.
Speaker:To be in those who've attended the club. Yeah,
Speaker:the party goes. And
Speaker:what you see throughout this performance
Speaker:is a level of
Speaker:sexism. The wording that they use
Speaker:around the women, the dressing
Speaker:that they use for the women. So they've got their short skirts on
Speaker:M. You can see the top of the inside of their thighs.
Speaker:You watch them behave in a certain way whilst they're
Speaker:drinking. It was so. The
Speaker:lens that they use was so
Speaker:misogynistic and overtly
Speaker:sexual. And I think
Speaker:as a parent and being a parent that of course
Speaker:works predominantly and for spends her
Speaker:whole working day with women.
Speaker:We found it really hardly. And what I found
Speaker:super hard was that nobody in that school
Speaker:had picked anybody up on that.
Speaker:It was all just seen from an artistic perspective and it
Speaker:was brilliant. From an observational point of view. It couldn't have been any
Speaker:more bang on. I know you haven't seen
Speaker:it but it really, it really hit
Speaker:home for me that if this is what we're allowing to be
Speaker:revisited.
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: If this is what we're allowing to our
Speaker:children and the adults in the audience to listen
Speaker:to and in fact to celebrate that
Speaker:performance.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: What does that mean for our next generation? There's
Speaker:1,200 boys at that school and it was only a small percentage that were part
Speaker:of the performance. But what does it mean in terms of
Speaker:what we see as being acceptable? And I wondered how you go
Speaker:about educating that and I wonder what your thoughts were.
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: Yeah. So I mean, obviously without the
Speaker:context of seeing it, there is a challenge in
Speaker:trying to assess it, I think from a bigger
Speaker:perspective if that was an actual
Speaker:education piece around it, as
Speaker:in kind of edutainment, where
Speaker:there was like a kind of a breakdown of
Speaker:the language that was used, the perspectives, how the male
Speaker:gaze was dominant and if that there have been some
Speaker:breakdown of that, it might have actually been
Speaker:a really powerful educational tool because
Speaker:that kind of dramatic arts performance
Speaker:can really bring certain things to light that people haven't
Speaker:considered before. so I mean it could potentially being
Speaker:used it as a tool to learn, obviously when
Speaker:it's just provided as entertainment
Speaker:and dramatic ability, then
Speaker:maybe not so. But it is a real challenge because if we
Speaker:think about how content is consumed,
Speaker:women consume a lot more balance in their
Speaker:content between genders. The books that they read, what
Speaker:they watch, what they listen to. Whereas what we find is
Speaker:young men and young boys, they consume very, very
Speaker:male dominant content in general. and
Speaker:that means that they lack that gendered lens on the world.
Speaker:Meaning that this just kind of looks kind of normal. And
Speaker:it's what they hear a few of the mates saying. It's like oh yeah, that's just
Speaker:normal. And they're in these groups online
Speaker:where there's a normalisation of these things.
Speaker:Judgement of women, objectification,
Speaker:you know, a feeling of entitlement to women's
Speaker:bodies, a feeling that actually men
Speaker:are superior. And
Speaker:these kind of messages are continually propagated
Speaker:out so that some of these young boys just, they just think that's
Speaker:normal. and one of the scariest things that we've heard in our
Speaker:work is, I mean these young boys are
Speaker:basically in these communities there are no
Speaker:moderating standards because it's not front facing. So
Speaker:we quite often think tick tock, you know, X
Speaker:YouTube, they're really bad. Well I mean in some ways
Speaker:they're not great but in these communities there are no moderating
Speaker:standards. So what you see on social media is like
Speaker:silly memes in those groups. It's like
Speaker:violent pornography. There's just, there's just no
Speaker:filters in those groups because there's no moderation, it's not
Speaker:public facing. so we've had,
Speaker:we've had, you know, boys say, is, is, is is it normal to
Speaker:put your, your arms around your hands around a
Speaker:girl's throat when you, you're having sex? Is that normal? Because
Speaker:that's all I've ever seen. Like
Speaker:the, that's the, that's their education and
Speaker:the light surprised when you say no, it's not normal.
Speaker:In fact, you could kill someone and that would
Speaker:completely change your life and not in a good way.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So that's a question that you've seen. That's an actual
Speaker:question that you've seen. So what about that? Oh my
Speaker:God. Because I know. Sorry to jump in,
Speaker:but I know when I've had conversations with my son
Speaker:and he's very proudly walked me through the mechanics of
Speaker:an intimate relationship, and I
Speaker:said to him, so he's 12. And I've said to him and
Speaker:we've started our conversations many years ago, know about the
Speaker:mechanics and one of the things that I've, I say to him and keep saying to him
Speaker:is look, the mechanics are just the mechanics. Anybody can achieve
Speaker:that actually.
Speaker:What about the issue of consent?
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: Yep. It's because the, the truth is consent.
Speaker:When we Talk to young lads. Some
Speaker:young lads think consent equals once. So
Speaker:a lot of them think if she said yeah before, that means
Speaker:yeah, forever.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Oh my God, it's so scary
Speaker:me.
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: So, but like that, that's like a lot of things
Speaker:in society where the people think
Speaker:that if someone has accepted something once, then that's
Speaker:acceptable always.
Speaker:So, but that's their perspective because that's what they're being
Speaker:told. You know, these young people, they're not
Speaker:getting the beliefs from thin
Speaker:air, they're getting the beliefs from who they're surrounded by.
Speaker:And we can always look and say, you know,
Speaker:parents have a role within this, they definitely do. But
Speaker:not everyone has supportive parents. Not everyone
Speaker:has parents. And actually for
Speaker:the many of these young lads, they're in that phase where they
Speaker:dropped off listening to the parents because the parents don't
Speaker:understand, the parents don't get it. And in those groups they say
Speaker:the parent. Your parents are like the old system, the
Speaker:old generation. They don't know what you're going
Speaker:through, they don't know the language that you use, they don't know your
Speaker:struggles. So don't listen to them because they're,
Speaker:biassed because you're their children and they'll treat you like
Speaker:a child. Listen to us. And
Speaker:that happens anyway to young people. They drift towards
Speaker:their peers and drift away from the parents
Speaker:and then usually as they get a bit older, then come back to the
Speaker:parents. but these transition points
Speaker:are just exploited. And I mean, for me
Speaker:it's helping them to critically think about what they see
Speaker:online, given that there's so much disinformation,
Speaker:and helping them see the impact of being
Speaker:surrounded by misogynistic viewpoints
Speaker:and how that could actually get them into a very difficult
Speaker:situation in their own lives, usually, and help
Speaker:them understand the consequences of that, while
Speaker:also looking and helping them understand why
Speaker:people tell you masculinity is this way,
Speaker:and actually helping them understand their own values and
Speaker:their own self expression and how they can bring
Speaker:that to the world. So instead of being told who they
Speaker:be actually going on a journey to find, and
Speaker:that's quite scary when you're younger and your hormones are raging
Speaker:around everywhere. But what we do find is that
Speaker:if they start to think about who they can be and
Speaker:what their values are and how they express
Speaker:that, they do feel more free away from some
Speaker:of the gender stereotypes that exist. and we've
Speaker:seen, you know, them able to have conversations
Speaker:about things that were quite scary to them
Speaker:previously. So, I mean, the work with boysjoy is
Speaker:absolutely vital. And I mean, I could talk about it all
Speaker:day. we're going to be doing some stuff next year from a government
Speaker:level to see what we can do, around this kind of
Speaker:online harm and these kind of communities that are
Speaker:very, very difficult to regulate or challenge.
Speaker:but also the work that we do with men in the workplace
Speaker:around looking at inclusions from a male
Speaker:perspective, building the skills of allyship.
Speaker:Because an ability to partner with women and other people to make
Speaker:a difference is so important. It's an
Speaker:advant. Also, many of the men that we work with
Speaker:are fathers. So
Speaker:it's equipping them with a skill set to also partner with
Speaker:their own children more effectively. You know, find
Speaker:those ways to listen to those different viewpoints they might
Speaker:have, try and have a conversation instead of
Speaker:judging them and kind of shaming them because that then
Speaker:shuts young boys off too. So these skill sets are really
Speaker:important, but not just in the workplace for men, but
Speaker:also in their roles as fathers and sons
Speaker:and partners out in the world too. And, I'm
Speaker:incredibly passionate about men being a part of inclusion because
Speaker:it's not been marketed very well towards men historically.
Speaker:and in this country, men still hold a significant amount of
Speaker:institutional power and they can use that
Speaker:to really close some of these gender gaps, dismantle some of these
Speaker:systemic barriers that women face.
Speaker:But also when they do that, it starts
Speaker:dismantle some of the systemic barriers that men face as well.
Speaker:Exactly. These issues are not,
Speaker:not just one sided. In fact, the root causes
Speaker:are very similar. So yeah, how do
Speaker:we partner together to tackle some of those root causes?
Speaker:That's why I love the concept of allyship as a skill
Speaker:set and as a vehicle towards partnering with others
Speaker:to make that change.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And for those who are listening, again, you will know why. A
Speaker:fangirl so m much overlay. I mean you just.
Speaker:Everything that you are looking to achieve is
Speaker:everything that my clients need and
Speaker:require.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Everything you already know
Speaker:you're capable of more. You don't need permission,
Speaker:you need strategy. Let's make it
Speaker:happen. Drop me an email at, jomanbehindthewomen
Speaker:uh.com
Speaker:or find me online. You'll find
Speaker:everything you need to get in touch with me in the show notes.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: We have to have to have
Speaker:an environment that we can feel comfortable,
Speaker:confident that we can be with others who are educated, that
Speaker:we lose the bias that that nobody's looking through the male
Speaker:gaze, that we're in a position whereby we can close
Speaker:our pay gas but we can do that with support. Right. That
Speaker:we can, we can access promotion opportunities
Speaker:without having to feel as though we've
Speaker:completely depleted any of our energy
Speaker:levels because we're so busy pushing the performance button,
Speaker:because we're having to push against those
Speaker:barriers that are all just through the male
Speaker:gaze.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: To. Everything you do is
Speaker:helping my clients to get to where they need to be. And I
Speaker:think to your point earlier, when we were in the green room, you know, one of the things
Speaker:that you wish you didn't need to do was the education
Speaker:piece with the boys. You wish that that was already done and dusted and it
Speaker:shouldn't even be a thing. And that, again, is very m. Very similar for me. I
Speaker:wish that I didn't need to do the work I do with the clients
Speaker:I work with. But nonetheless, I work over the globe with
Speaker:women who face this stuff every day.
Speaker:So I'm sure as people are listening, they're
Speaker:probably thinking, yes, they're also going to go and follow you and we'll talk about
Speaker:where they can find you in a minute.
Speaker:But I have three questions, Lee, that I ask all of my guests. And I
Speaker:wondered, did you go to uni? And if you
Speaker:did, what difference did that
Speaker:make to your career? And if you didn't go,
Speaker:what difference does that make to your career?
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: Yeah, really interesting question. So I was the first one in my extended
Speaker:family to go to university. I got there,
Speaker:I dropped out. I spent a year trying to
Speaker:get back into a better place. I went back and I
Speaker:graduated. So interestingly, that meant that
Speaker:I was able to actually get a grad scheme. So it
Speaker:did influence the early part of my career. But that
Speaker:very grad scheme, I lost that grad scheme in the 08
Speaker:recession, and then ended up stepping
Speaker:out of any kind of graduate pathway
Speaker:and building my own business. So I reflect back
Speaker:and think it definitely opened and widened m my perspective
Speaker:of the university experience. How much of my degree
Speaker:do I still apply to this day?
Speaker:Not, probably not much of it, but there's bits and pieces
Speaker:that come up every now and again. And I think possibly
Speaker:the, the biggest and most interesting thing to consider is I'm
Speaker:now on the board of the very business school
Speaker:where I went to university 20 years later.
Speaker:so it's gone full circle. And I'm
Speaker:now part of helping the business schools to,
Speaker:continue to uplift the opportunities for people
Speaker:from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. Like I was,
Speaker:and also was recently on University Challenge representing them
Speaker:too. So, yeah, I mean, I reflect back and think I
Speaker:wasn't a great student, I'll be honest. but I'm now
Speaker:representing the university in a positive way 20 years later.
Speaker:So, yeah, it's had an impact on my career,
Speaker:definitely. and it definitely opened my eyes to a
Speaker:bigger world than the time where I grew up.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And I did see you on University Challenge in the most amazing
Speaker:suit, I have to say. I mean that, Jackie, you're always on point
Speaker:in terms of presentation, but I was like, there he is.
Speaker:So my next question to you, and again, it applies to
Speaker:University Challenge. You'd have answered loads of questions, but what's
Speaker:the one question that you wish
Speaker:more people would ask you about
Speaker:the journey that you're on?
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: I mean, that in itself is a great question.
Speaker:I'm a big fan of curiosity, and I do
Speaker:feel that curiosity is a great route into this
Speaker:work. That curiosity to wonder why things work the
Speaker:way they do, why the system is like it is, what
Speaker:other people go through that I don't go through. and I
Speaker:think possibly the. The most, the. The question
Speaker:that I want to hear more
Speaker:is men coming and saying, how can I be a part of this?
Speaker:What can I do? And how do I start? Now I
Speaker:am starting to get more men asking that question, which is
Speaker:definitely a positive sign given that there
Speaker:is a growing resistance on the other side
Speaker:and a growing group of men starting to think about how
Speaker:they. How they apply this in a very dynamic
Speaker:world. so the question that I want to hear more of
Speaker:is men come in saying, how can I be part of this? How can I build
Speaker:these skills? You know, where do I start and how do I
Speaker:explore the difference it's going to make to me? because
Speaker:one of the big questions that's very rarely shared is,
Speaker:what does inclusion do to men? No one ever talks about
Speaker:that, but actually it does a whole range of things for men. And our
Speaker:research, again, shows that actually men
Speaker:get a lot of benefits out of becoming more inclusive, building
Speaker:that allyship skill, set. But no one ever talks about it, and
Speaker:therefore it's not as compelling. And men don't see what's
Speaker:in it for them. They just hear how it might take away from
Speaker:them. And that's actually not true when it plays out in
Speaker:reality.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And, although I've got another question for you. I can't. I can't not
Speaker:go to what you've. The point that you've just made.
Speaker:So if there are people listening and, they want to
Speaker:be really clear as to what the benefits are for men from an
Speaker:inclusion perspective. Apart from the commerciality point
Speaker:for corporates, what are the other benefits?
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: Yeah, so from a personal perspective what we've
Speaker:heard is less feeling like they have to have the right answer M
Speaker:less feeling they have to win all the time.
Speaker:Less fear of making mistakes. More
Speaker:connected to themselves and the children and the
Speaker:partner. Able to talk and ask
Speaker:for support and feel open to receiving
Speaker:support. Seeing more nuance in the world
Speaker:around them, Noticing little things and opportunities they didn't see
Speaker:before. Being more self aware
Speaker:and you know, being more kind of able to have
Speaker:conversations that are a bit challenging or feel a bit
Speaker:braver to make decisions when they haven't got all the data.
Speaker:Able to see and notice other people frightening, thriving
Speaker:and flourishing around them because they've created that
Speaker:space. Having people come and
Speaker:share some of their challenges because they feel safe enough to
Speaker:do so. there are so many different benefits and
Speaker:then from the wider perspective a lot of that then leads
Speaker:to you know, better relationships
Speaker:with the partners and the children and even their own
Speaker:parents feeling like they're at a relative
Speaker:advantage in the workplace in terms of building that people
Speaker:skill set given that technology is taking some of the
Speaker:skills they might have and making them less relevant,
Speaker:actually feeling like they can be part of changing the
Speaker:future and working much better with Gen Z.
Speaker:So I mean there are a whole range of benefits that will come
Speaker:out from our research to it's important that men
Speaker:find the benefits for them
Speaker:quite personal. But one of the biggest things is they become more
Speaker:compassionate to themselves and to other men and we
Speaker:need more compassion in the world because it's
Speaker:contagious. You know, every time we choose compassion
Speaker:the world gets a bit better. So I
Speaker:love that, I love.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: That every time we choose compassion the world gets a bit
Speaker:better. It's so true. It's so
Speaker:true.
Speaker:So my final question for you again that I
Speaker:ask all of my guests is to find out from you
Speaker:if you were Talking to your
Speaker:21 year old self, which for you
Speaker:isn't as many years ago as it is for me. But if you were Talking to
Speaker:your 21 year old self, what would
Speaker:you tell him?
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: Uh-huh.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Would be some of the challenges that he would have to
Speaker:overcome and what would
Speaker:you tell him to constantly remind himself of?
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: so I've got a really compelling answer for
Speaker:this. Firstly the piece of advice would
Speaker:be you don't need to have it all worked out.
Speaker:Put a lot of pressure on myself when I was younger to have it worked
Speaker:out and I was the first one in my family to uni, the first one to
Speaker:get a profession. You know, I was the. That trailblazer.
Speaker:That was a lot of pressure. The answer to the second question
Speaker:is, I've got a book that's out on the 3rd of January
Speaker:called Momentum Thirteen Ways to Unlock your
Speaker:Potential. That book is the Thirteen
Speaker:Lessons that I wish I'd have known at the start of my
Speaker:career 20 years ago. So if
Speaker:you actually want a really powerful answer to
Speaker:that particular question, to find out a bit more about my
Speaker:background and how I've got into this work, it would
Speaker:be, a really good purchase to make. And
Speaker:that's not from any place of bias. And
Speaker:it's a very universal book in how it's been written,
Speaker:because those 13 lessons will definitely provide
Speaker:you with some insight into not only
Speaker:the lessons I've learned, but how I've learned them, usually the
Speaker:hard way, and also how they can be
Speaker:relevant on your journey too.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: We are going to absolutely make sure that we put
Speaker:the link to your book, when we send the podcast up
Speaker:and say that it's live and we'll make sure that we link to it in reference
Speaker:to it. I cannot thank you
Speaker:enough for coming along and taking the time to
Speaker:be a guest for me on the podcast.
Speaker:You are inspirational. You are
Speaker:a, guiding light. You are somebody I refer to
Speaker:regularly. Whenever I'm questioned or challenged. I will say,
Speaker:just head for Male Allies uk. Just head fully
Speaker:and get some education and then circle back to me. Because the
Speaker:way that you deliver the
Speaker:education is so easy to absorb,
Speaker:but it, it's not polarising.
Speaker:It means that it isn't confrontational. And I think that's where people
Speaker:can really absorb and learn and
Speaker:change their behaviours.
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And that's what this is all about, right? Behaviour change.
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: Yeah. You can't slap people around the back of the head and expect
Speaker:them to, to change just because they're being
Speaker:shamed to. And, you can't just tell people it's the right thing
Speaker:to do because there are a lot of things that
Speaker:we think we know are the right thing to do. We don't
Speaker:do them, we don't do them for ourselves.
Speaker:So it's really about understanding the drivers behind
Speaker:what we do, what can make it sustainable and
Speaker:what benefits we get from it. So we can see that
Speaker:today's discomfort is tomorrow's growth. And,
Speaker:actually there's a reason why we're investing time
Speaker:in expanding our perspective, in thinking how we
Speaker:partner with difference, to create more of
Speaker:a difference, and how actually we can create our
Speaker:legacy in our everyday actions because we
Speaker:so often see it as an end of career or do something good at the
Speaker:end. Our legacy is how we interact with people on a daily
Speaker:basis. And that legacy is now coming back to
Speaker:haunt some individuals in the public eye. but for those
Speaker:who've been building a legacy of respect and dignity,
Speaker:they will continue to thrive in their lives
Speaker:going forward.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So, Lee, where can people find you if they, if they would
Speaker:like to reach out to you?
Speaker:>> Lee Chambers: The best place would be on LinkedIn, where I'm very
Speaker:active sharing my perspective. So that's Lee
Speaker:Chambers. you can also find more about the work that
Speaker:we do on my own website, which is
Speaker:leachambers.org or
Speaker:mailalies.co.uk
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Thank you so much for being a brilliant guest. I'm
Speaker:super grateful,
Speaker:as you were.
