Episode 6
Katherine Evans: The Bold As Brass Geologist Putting the ‘Personal’ in PPE For Women
"We're seeing the equipment, we're seeing the protective—we're not seeing the personal." – Katherine Evans, Founder of Bold as Brass
Jo Phillips is joined by Katherine Evans, founder of Bold as Brass, to talk about why personal protective equipment (PPE) is still failing women—and what we can do to fix it.
From ill-fitting safety gear to the invisible barriers women face in male-dominated industries, Katherine shares her powerful story of challenging the status quo in heavy industry and designing PPE that actually fits women's bodies, identities, and needs.
They explore how something as ‘practical’ as workwear can either protect or dehumanise—and why seeing the person behind the PPE is the first step to systemic change.
Episode Highlights
(02:10) – Katherine’s mission behind Bold as Brass
(03:40) – The problem with “unisex” PPE: when protection becomes exclusion
(07:20) – Why representation matters
(10:00) – PPE and the body: why gear designed for male frames puts others at risk
(14:25) – What does truly personal protective equipment look like?
(19:10) – Catherine on bringing her whole self to an industry that wasn’t built for her
(24:00) – The language of change: why words like “grit” and “resilience” just don’t cut it
(29:30) – Advice for women in male-dominated sectors
About Our Guest: Katherine Evans
Katherine Evans is the founder of Bold as Brass, a Linkedin group designed to provide inclusive, dignified, and genuinely protective PPE for women and underrepresented groups in heavy industry.
Having worked in sectors where safety and identity are often compromised by one-size-fits-men gear, Katherine launched Bold as Brass to redefine what safety looks and feels like. She’s a passionate advocate for visibility, safety, and systemic change in workplaces where women have too often been treated as an afterthought.
Follow Katherine on LinkedIn
Join Bold as Brass
About your host: Jo Phillips
Jo coaches ambitious women like you to break through career barriers, own their worth, and finally get the career and salary they deserve. Through 1:1 coaching, Jo helps you identify what’s holding you back, to build an unapologetic strategy for success, cheerleading you every step of the way—because you already have what it takes. It’s time to stop waiting and start moving with audacity…
Connect with Jo:
Website: The Woman Behind The Women
Socials: Linkedin / Instagram: @thewomanbehindthewomen
'The Chat Womb' is hosted by Jo Phillips and proudly produced by Decibelle Creative: @decibelle_creative / www.decibellecreative.com
Transcript
>> Katherine Evans: PPE is available for so many intersections
Speaker:of human beings, not just for women.
Speaker:And we're not doing enough to see the
Speaker:individual. The first P of ppe, which is personal, this is
Speaker:personal protective equipment. We're seeing the equipment,
Speaker:we're seeing the protective, we're not seeing the personal.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Hi.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Thanks for stopping by. We've been waiting for you.
Speaker:Welcome to the chat room, the
Speaker:space for becoming who you were always supposed to be.
Speaker:This is not another fluffy empowerment podcast.
Speaker:This is where we get real about the barriers that hold
Speaker:women like you back. The pay
Speaker:rises. We don't ask for the promotions we're
Speaker:already qualified for the roles we've been
Speaker:conditioned to shrink ourselves into.
Speaker:I'm Jo Phillips, founder, of the Woman behind the Women,
Speaker:and I'm here to help you see the system,
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: For what it is.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So you stop internalising the bullshit
Speaker:and start moving with audacity.
Speaker:You'll find all the information you need to connect or
Speaker:work with me in the show notes. For now, though, come
Speaker:and take a seat in the chat room because it's time to introduce you
Speaker:to today's guest.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: It's my absolute honour. It's my absolute, absolute pleasure.
Speaker:It's my privilege to introduce a
Speaker:super special guest for me today. On today's
Speaker:chat room, we have got the
Speaker:amazing Katherine Evans with us. Thank you so much
Speaker:for being with us, Katherine Thank you so much. For those
Speaker:who don't know, Katherine is the founder of
Speaker:Boulders, Brass and Women's Equity and a
Speaker:heavy industry specialist. Katherine is with us today
Speaker:and wait until you hear some of her background, some
Speaker:of her insights and how she's got to where she is.
Speaker:Katherine and I have just been talking in the green room and
Speaker:she was just about to start talking to me about a
Speaker:story. I should just let you all know that Katherine is on her way
Speaker:to being one of the most influential women within the
Speaker:construction industry is award winning,
Speaker:well recognised within her sector. This
Speaker:story that's about to come up. Oh, my goodness. Over
Speaker:to you, Katherine I'm going to let you open the floor with this before we go
Speaker:anywhere else in our podcast. My God.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Well, yeah, I used to work. I used to work in one
Speaker:of the last remaining coal mines in the country
Speaker:and I was the only woman to have worked there.
Speaker:This was over a decade ago
Speaker:now when I first started out, and I started there as a
Speaker:graduate, but I'd already worked
Speaker:offshore at that point. I came on as a graduate
Speaker:mining geologist, but I'd worked offshore. I'd spent
Speaker:a year living overseas and, came back and was,
Speaker:working underground.
Speaker:And most of the men that worked in that pit had
Speaker:never worked with a woman before. the only thing that they really
Speaker:knew of women was the women who worked in accounts, the.
Speaker:My manager's wife and the.
Speaker:The women who, were
Speaker:on the front desk. So, like, the standard
Speaker:jobs that they. In their heads were like,
Speaker:these are the jobs that women do. So then me
Speaker:working underground, was. I
Speaker:almost didn't get the job because there was no shower room
Speaker:for me. Because the men have a wash
Speaker:and they would go and stand in the bath house and in a
Speaker:circle and they'd all scrub each other's backs in the
Speaker:nut. And that's. That's, how it's done.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: No, it
Speaker:can't be true. That cannot be a true
Speaker:story. That's. So they will all finish
Speaker:their day when they come back up.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: yep.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And they'll all shower each other.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yes. How else are you gonna get, like, the coal
Speaker:out of your back? You can't reach.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So this is also after working in their pants that you were just
Speaker:telling me again in the green room because it's 30 degrees down there.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah. There's no shame. There's absolutely no shame. These
Speaker:men know each other so well that. Yeah,
Speaker:it's that level of camaraderie that I've been on a
Speaker:quest to find my entire career. Because
Speaker:when. When you kind of. You realise it's
Speaker:of bond. And when we talk about
Speaker:groups being families. Well, I would say that
Speaker:these men spent more time together than they did with their family. So what
Speaker:would you call that? And true. Yeah,
Speaker:they. They knew each other
Speaker:so well. And the nicknames they used to give to each
Speaker:other would crack you up because they weren't offensive, they were
Speaker:just funny. And they were happy to hold
Speaker:those nicknames because they weren't offensive.
Speaker:And there was a guy called Talking Bollocks
Speaker:because he talked a lot of bollocks.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Did you say the guy was called that used to walk around and
Speaker:check that you were okay.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Wandering Willy Williams? Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: There was Tulip, because he was as tall as,
Speaker:a Dutchman. So they called him Tulip.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Love it.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah, There was another one, another
Speaker:one. Carl. Questions.
Speaker:Because he asked a lot of questions.
Speaker:M. I never found out what my
Speaker:nickname was, but I'm sure I had one. Unless they just called me
Speaker:Kath, because I was the only woman. So it wouldn't
Speaker:have been difficult to know it was me.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Is it true? Is it true?
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah. But the story I was about to tell you was that
Speaker:the day that it was shift change
Speaker:and I was underground coming back out, shift
Speaker:change is there's, there's a lot of men in
Speaker:one go coming in. And the reason I keep saying men
Speaker:is because they, they were all men. And this is, this is
Speaker:the point of conversation is that I was the only
Speaker:woman. There were no non binary people.
Speaker:This was just. They were blokes
Speaker:and they, they were
Speaker:shift changing. So one shift was leaving the mine, they'd
Speaker:been working the morning shift and the next one were going in
Speaker:and they work in like the afternoon into the evening shift. So all these
Speaker:men meeting together in one place where the, the belts,
Speaker:exchange so you can ride the belts. There were men
Speaker:man riding belts that you could get on and
Speaker:ride back out, but you had to walk down.
Speaker:So they would be getting on the belt at this point and
Speaker:having a good chat about what's happened. It was like the,
Speaker:the kind of, what's the word? Not
Speaker:Passover, but the handover was, was taking
Speaker:place at that point. And, one guy said to me, he was a
Speaker:foreman, Katherine you were coming down today to have shave
Speaker:on. I was like, great,
Speaker:okay, come and smell it. No,
Speaker:no, God, please. Go on, go on, go on. And I was
Speaker:like, oh. And it's like going quieter and quieter, with all
Speaker:these men there. So I went to give it a sniff and he
Speaker:turned his face and kissed me on the lips
Speaker:in front of all the men, which I laughed off
Speaker:because as somebody who was like, I was
Speaker:about 24, oh my God, you're so young.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So. Oh my God. And this is in front
Speaker:of everybody.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah. So like, they, they treated me as their
Speaker:daughter. However, nobody
Speaker:would have done that to one of their daughters because they would have been
Speaker:laid out knowing these men m. The way they were. So
Speaker:there's always. That I think was the low
Speaker:point at the time didn't really feel like much of
Speaker:an issue because it was 10 years ago,
Speaker:2011. So it was more than
Speaker:that is a long time ago to me. I've grown
Speaker:a lot since then. But these are the foundational things that
Speaker:have happened in my life to
Speaker:make me reflect and grow
Speaker:and see that this isn't, this isn't okay.
Speaker:And these are the reasons why we don't have that many women
Speaker:working in these heavy industries.
Speaker:Because we still have a lot of people who are living in an era in
Speaker:their minds that doesn't exist and wasn't, wasn't
Speaker:okay when they were, when it did exist.
Speaker:And if we want things to
Speaker:progress. And we want women to feel safe at work
Speaker:and be safe at work. Then there's certain
Speaker:things we have to realise and come
Speaker:to terms with our own actions, our
Speaker:own language, what we think is
Speaker:appropriate and step
Speaker:away from this thing of ah,
Speaker:saying that you can't say anything
Speaker:anymore and everybody's a snowflake and this
Speaker:generation, like trying to divide people up with
Speaker:generations, when really the world is moving
Speaker:on and if you don't move on with it, you get left behind and businesses die.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Quite. And we've become, I think there's a certain generation
Speaker:that has become desensitised and
Speaker:just thinks that Well, that's just the way it is. That's just, that's just how it is.
Speaker:You just have to deal with it. That's, you know, I dealt with it. You
Speaker:just have to deal with it. And we don't
Speaker:recognise or understand that actually it's a problem.
Speaker:It's a huge problem.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah. And you get. I find that they,
Speaker:those people do exist and I find
Speaker:women who do exist like that, they are the, the harder
Speaker:ones to try to change their
Speaker:mindsets of the ones who feel
Speaker:that they've managed to survive in this industry
Speaker:under these conditions. And that is kind of a badge of
Speaker:honour.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Right.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: And if you can't do it as well, then this is
Speaker:not the place for you. Instead of thinking of it as
Speaker:it has sucked for me, like this is,
Speaker:this is how I feel about it is that there have been situations,
Speaker:been scenarios like I worked in Canada and I was getting
Speaker:paid 20 grand less than my
Speaker:male counterparts who had less experience than me
Speaker:because I was a woman and foreign. I don't want
Speaker:that to carry on. I don't want that for other women
Speaker:and I don't want it for myself. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to fix this for
Speaker:me as well, but knowing that this
Speaker:isn't going to happen overnight and there's probably
Speaker:decades of change that need to go ahead before
Speaker:we're even close to that. I mean it takes over 200 years,
Speaker:isn't it, before we actually reach equality. When they look.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: But there's no, there's nothing against being a catalyst
Speaker:for that change.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So what, what are you on a mission to do? If you were to
Speaker:describe it for the audience? What is Katherine Evans
Speaker:Boulders brass on a mission to do?
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Increase safety felt by women
Speaker:experienced by women in heavy industries.
Speaker:It started with PPE because that is a
Speaker:symptom of how
Speaker:the industry is being run. I
Speaker:feel that it's a symptom. That is
Speaker:when I really looked into what the problems were with
Speaker:ppe. It wasn't a case of PPE isn't
Speaker:available, that the brands don't care about women.
Speaker:The brands are making the ppe. Why
Speaker:is that PPE not reaching the women? Even
Speaker:though it affects women in a way that
Speaker:it's not about comfort, it's about
Speaker:safety. So it's a case of they are wearing clothing,
Speaker:garments and pieces of PPE that are too big for them,
Speaker:which makes their life more dangerous. It
Speaker:increases the risk because it gives them additional hazards to deal with.
Speaker:And, then they're told that they can't have the
Speaker:stuff that is women's fit because either the women's
Speaker:fits are rubbish, so just by the men's, or this is
Speaker:unisex, not realising that unisex is
Speaker:actually made around a man's body, not a woman's body.
Speaker:And there is no blend of the two. It
Speaker:either fits or it doesn't. Or,
Speaker:that women's PPE is too expensive,
Speaker:so you can't have it, have the men's. And, I think
Speaker:that's the one that really gets me because
Speaker:the one of saying that women's PPE doesn't exist.
Speaker:I've said it before as well. I was saying that
Speaker:in the beginning, two years ago, women's PPE doesn't exist. And,
Speaker:quickly found out it does exist when all these brands
Speaker:contacted me to say, would you like some of it to see that it
Speaker:does exist? And they started to send me pieces to trial
Speaker:and I found that I now have two rails of PPE
Speaker:upstairs for women and ridiculous,
Speaker:amounts of PPE that drives my husband mad.
Speaker:The orange that's in this house.
Speaker:So it's just not. It's not a
Speaker:true statement to say that, but it's a myth that
Speaker:we need to expel. So I'm working on that. So
Speaker:then say, well, why. Why is it not getting there? Ah.
Speaker:And I found that the reason it's not getting there is
Speaker:because you have a lack of communication
Speaker:between the Health and Safety people and procurement
Speaker:departments. The Health and Safety people
Speaker:don't have anything. And they, they do a lot
Speaker:of. A lot of courses, a
Speaker:lot, get a lot of tickets, get a lot of, things like
Speaker:nebosh, Iosh, all these certificates that
Speaker:they need to be competent.
Speaker:They don't cover ppe. PPE isn't being brought
Speaker:up. It's always seen as the last line of Defence
Speaker:and you need to remove everything else before
Speaker:requiring ppe. So
Speaker:that's where the problem lies, is that it's not fitting
Speaker:individuals. But if there
Speaker:isn't that link between health and
Speaker:safety and procurement where health and safety
Speaker:was saying, you need to have this exact piece because this
Speaker:reaches the safety standards that we need and we need to think about the
Speaker:individual and the intersections of that
Speaker:person means that they can't wear that, they need to have this because
Speaker:this is going to affect their health or they're going to be at
Speaker:higher risk because that doesn't fit. That's not
Speaker:happening. So the procurement department is
Speaker:there to buy, they're there
Speaker:to procure. They're also there to
Speaker:try and save money.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: That's right.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: That's their biggest point. Yes. So they're looking
Speaker:for things that ah, places where they can cut the
Speaker:costs because they've got KPIs as well
Speaker:and without that knowledge behind them, of cutting that cost
Speaker:here, that's going to make a massive impact on that
Speaker:individual who is now going to be put at risk.
Speaker:They don't know that. There's also the
Speaker:thing of when we put out the tenders from
Speaker:these businesses to the distributors
Speaker:who are selling the ppe,
Speaker:these companies aren't asking for
Speaker:inclusive ppe, they're just asking for
Speaker:PPE and the distributors
Speaker:ah, are then quoting just
Speaker:for men's or unisex ppe, which
Speaker:is men's. So
Speaker:we need to both sides to
Speaker:realise that you're going to have to start
Speaker:using the words or as ah,
Speaker:standards. You, you
Speaker:vote for everything because you need to future proof
Speaker:your business. You may not need to have
Speaker:a fire retardant hijab right now,
Speaker:but there's no reason why you can't go to a business
Speaker:that stocks fire retardant hijabs
Speaker:because in the future, which might just be six months
Speaker:time, and you take on a Muslim woman who is working
Speaker:in a fire risk part of the
Speaker:business, you don't have to think
Speaker:about having to go somewhere else to find it
Speaker:or her not getting what she needs and you
Speaker:putting her under additional risk, and
Speaker:exposing yourself to the
Speaker:Equality act and court
Speaker:cases by just doing this one little thing now
Speaker:because this stuff is available. There is this,
Speaker:this PPE is available for so many
Speaker:intersections of human beings, not just for
Speaker:women. And we're not doing enough
Speaker:to see the individual. The first P of ppe,
Speaker:which is personal, this is personal protective equipment. We're
Speaker:seeing the equipment, we're seeing the protective we're not seeing the
Speaker:personal. We just buy what's
Speaker:cheap and we buy lots of it
Speaker:and then we just dish it out.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So again, driven by the commercials, right? As it is the
Speaker:usual corporate world of work all driven by
Speaker:the commercials. So what? How much more
Speaker:likely is a woman to
Speaker:be harmed, be injured,
Speaker:to die at work on the basis of
Speaker:lack of the relevant ppe?
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Well that stat is available and I can't remember off the
Speaker:top of my head, but
Speaker:I know that last year's HSE stat
Speaker:stated that more than 70% of
Speaker:injuries at work in construction were caused by
Speaker:PPE that didn't fit. Or.
Speaker:But yeah, PPE not being worn at all.
Speaker:So somebody's removed it.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So she's decided not to wear it because it
Speaker:didn't fit, it was uncomfy, it was too big, it was getting in the way.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah. So like that it's ungendered because AHSC
Speaker:doesn't mark by gender. but Katie Robinson has
Speaker:been looking into this from Natwick as part of her
Speaker:research for her postgrad that
Speaker:she did on women's PPE and she found some
Speaker:pretty shocking stats
Speaker:that she told me not to have anybody
Speaker:because she wasn't sure she could publicly say.
Speaker:But people aren't
Speaker:picking up PPE in the hsc. They
Speaker:aren't like these, these we're relying on the
Speaker:HSC to
Speaker:regulate and if there is
Speaker:no stick.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Right, absolutely.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: And people aren't being driven by the ethical
Speaker:side, of this is the right thing to do
Speaker:by that individual, the PPE that fits because their life is at higher
Speaker:risk if you don't and there is nobody coming for
Speaker:them with a big fine afterwards. They're
Speaker:literally waiting for that person to get hurt
Speaker:and then realise that oh,
Speaker:we, our indemnity insurance doesn't cover this because
Speaker:we didn't give them what they needed under
Speaker:L25 PPE regs. It's just not
Speaker:being strung together because there's no
Speaker:ticket or no certificate in
Speaker:ppe. So there's like this. The
Speaker:entire industry needs a shake up and
Speaker:we need to have like bsi. Now, I'm working with
Speaker:BSI on a standard that is
Speaker:completely on the procurement of inclusive ppe.
Speaker:There is no standard for the procurement
Speaker:of ppe which
Speaker:I think that's where we can go to.
Speaker:Or you just use the inclusive one because everybody
Speaker:is diverse, everybody has
Speaker:intersections somewhere along m their line. There are very few
Speaker:people who are of that level of privilege where
Speaker:they have no intersection. And
Speaker:I think it's seeing that it's being able
Speaker:to understand what privilege is, what
Speaker:privilege isn't. and not to be scared of the word because I have got a
Speaker:lot of privilege as a white woman who is
Speaker:heterosexual, cisgender, able
Speaker:bodied, neurotran, neurotypical. I
Speaker:have every piece apart from
Speaker:my sex. So it's
Speaker:just leaning into what we have,
Speaker:doing the right thing, being a better person, being a good
Speaker:person. And, not requiring that stick
Speaker:to come from the hsc, but could really do with the
Speaker:hsc, providing that stick for those
Speaker:who refuse to be ethical.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: You already know you're capable of more. You don't need
Speaker:permission, you need strategy.
Speaker:Let's make it happen. Drop me an email at,
Speaker:joewomanbehindthewomen,
Speaker:uh.com
Speaker:or find me online. You'll find
Speaker:everything you need to get in touch with me in the show notes.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So that everybody knows a bit more about you. How did you get
Speaker:to where you are today? Give us a bit of an
Speaker:overview in terms of your
Speaker:journey.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Well, I, I went to university,
Speaker:I went to Cardiff Uni and I studied geology.
Speaker:I, nearly dropped out in the second year to become tattoo artist
Speaker:because I really struggled
Speaker:because I'm also a painter and quite
Speaker:creative and quite good at drawing. So that, that,
Speaker:like the obvious thing to do. Of course, yeah, of course,
Speaker:absolutely, yeah. But my parents,
Speaker:like, over our dead body get back.
Speaker:So I went back, I
Speaker:finished my course. I only came out with a two. Two.
Speaker:But you know what, I came out with a two two. So,
Speaker:yeah, I did well, I was happy with what I done.
Speaker:I had a kind of a good
Speaker:time. I didn't. I wasn't one of these people who went out
Speaker:on the razzle because I'm, quite introverted. I like my own
Speaker:space. I don't like hangovers. I like
Speaker:dancing. So I used to go, just to go dancing
Speaker:and then not drink and I go home. and
Speaker:yeah, I finished there. I went to work on an oil
Speaker:rig because it was 2008 and I couldn't get a job.
Speaker:so I sold out and I went to work for an
Speaker:oil rig in the North Sea. And, that was
Speaker:weird.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: just absorbing this. An oil rig in the North Sea.
Speaker:Right. Okay. Yep, I'm with you. Okay.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Hm.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: So like 22 year old
Speaker:me trying to find my
Speaker:way by myself from my house to
Speaker:a place unknown in North
Speaker:Holland and then out
Speaker:on a chopper to the, to the North Sea
Speaker:oil rig that was in the Dutch sector. That
Speaker:was interesting. And this is all after having done
Speaker:the, They dunk you upside down in a helicopter
Speaker:in a pool, and you've got to try and get out of it. All that Ah jazz. They
Speaker:do that till you definitely can do it. Yeah. A
Speaker:helicopter crash. Test training, I think that's what it's
Speaker:called.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Wow. Okay, so they dunk you out
Speaker:of.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: A helicopter where they put you in like a helicopter
Speaker:shaped object. They dunk
Speaker:you into a cold pool. This was up
Speaker:in Aberdeen. Then it spins and you're
Speaker:inside and it's filling up with water. And you need to
Speaker:get this rebreather onto your face to
Speaker:make sure that you've got something to breathe because
Speaker:you're just re breathing your oxygen that's coming out of your
Speaker:breath. so it doesn't be long. Then you need to pop out
Speaker:the window to get out. So you're actually having
Speaker:to get the window out of this upside down
Speaker:helicopter while you're hanging upside down, like strapped in,
Speaker:get your strap off and swim out. And
Speaker:they do that and you keep doing it until they are happy that
Speaker:you can do that.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: I think I have stressful days in the office. I don't know if I'm
Speaker:born. Okay.
Speaker:Yeah. So. So we then arrive in the
Speaker:North Sea. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: But before I even got there, when I was at the
Speaker:heliport, somebody. Somebody saw. I was lucky
Speaker:that I was getting on the train in the airport.
Speaker:Somebody saw the name on my b. And they were like,
Speaker:I used to work for them. Where are you going? And I said the name of the rig and
Speaker:he's like, I'm going there. Follow me. It's like.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: You know where they're going.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah. But this man I'd never met in my life, and I was like, yeah, sure,
Speaker:I'll follow you. I would never do that now.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Why, Absolutely.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah. Something. I was like. My mother was not impressed. But
Speaker:when you're young and you're dull, you
Speaker:don't even think about these things.
Speaker:Yes. So, yeah, got there,
Speaker:was given the flotation
Speaker:suit, like a buoyancy suit. And this is a big
Speaker:rubber suit that you put on. It's got little booties
Speaker:already in it. It's kind of like what they wear on
Speaker:the RNLI lifeboats, that kind of
Speaker:thing. But mine,
Speaker:I was. I'm five foot two and, the Dutch are the tallest people
Speaker:on the planet. So everything was
Speaker:enormous and stretched out to be his.
Speaker:Quite rotund these days. On. On the rigs, they
Speaker:aren't. They aren't as
Speaker:mechanical as they used to be everything's
Speaker:automated a bit more so they.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Okay, so less activity. quite a lot
Speaker:of food.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So
Speaker:this, this thing that I put on was just gaping around
Speaker:the neck and gaping around the arms. And the only thing
Speaker:that thing had to do was keep water out. So
Speaker:even though I'd done all of that training to learn how to get
Speaker:out of a, crashed helicopter should it come
Speaker:down the North Sea, that would have filled up with water
Speaker:and would have drowned me before I could have actually
Speaker:got out. And that's where my
Speaker:PPE life began when I
Speaker:realised this isn't going to work. There isn't PPE
Speaker:for people like me. I'm not the
Speaker:average person that works in these scenarios.
Speaker:And it was always difficult.
Speaker:Boots were always difficult. They always hurt because
Speaker:they were always too wide. they, you
Speaker:always had to size down and then wear really, really
Speaker:big socks and didn't
Speaker:understand why. Now I understand because these boots are
Speaker:formed around a male last. And the last is
Speaker:like the thing that you see in the window of Clarks, the little wooden boot
Speaker:thing that is a last. Yeah, it's
Speaker:shaped, it's, it's been designed around feet and
Speaker:shaped around feet. And men have lasts.
Speaker:Women have last. They also make unisex last which is a
Speaker:man's last has been shaved down in bits. And
Speaker:this unisex last is what they shape
Speaker:a lot of boots on and say that they're women's.
Speaker:So we've been pushing to make sure
Speaker:that women's, true women's fit is a true women's fit. It's made
Speaker:to fit. Women's feet is shaped around a woman's
Speaker:last. Because women's feet are different
Speaker:shape, we've got narrower feet. The
Speaker:instep, which is like the bridge of the top of your foot tends
Speaker:to be higher. You tend to have a higher arch.
Speaker:You are more likely to over pronate.
Speaker:our toes point a completely different way.
Speaker:Men's toes point
Speaker:outwards and women's point
Speaker:inwards. I believe that's.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah. Your toes kind of point in towards centre line
Speaker:whereas men's point away. And then their feet are more
Speaker:duck shaped that, because of that, whereas
Speaker:ours are more like moon
Speaker:shaped. Then you've
Speaker:got. Our centre of gravity is different because our
Speaker:body shape is different. The places where we store weight
Speaker:compared to men and the way that our
Speaker:centre of gravity is kind of higher than a man's.
Speaker:You've got a Q value in your hips
Speaker:Our Q value is wider. It's
Speaker:like larger than a man's because we have a
Speaker:uterus that needs to be stored and we need somewhere to grow a
Speaker:baby. That means that
Speaker:we are, already at higher risk of damaging our knees than
Speaker:men because we've got kind of
Speaker:triangular shape going on between the hips and the
Speaker:knees compared to something that's far more 90
Speaker:degrees in a man's. We then go and
Speaker:use a man's shaped boot which doesn't tie
Speaker:onto our feet properly because our ankles are narrower than
Speaker:a man's and m, our feet are slipping around because they
Speaker:aren't as wide. You're at a higher risk
Speaker:of damaging your knees. Again, on top of that
Speaker:then you've got, the blisters that
Speaker:form and like the short term things. But because
Speaker:your body is having to
Speaker:overcompensate in these shoes
Speaker:that weren't made to fit you with pressure points at
Speaker:different places. Like we put a lot of pressure into our heels because of where
Speaker:our centre of gravity is compared to a men's, which is a bit more forward.
Speaker:These shoes aren't supporting us so our bodies have to
Speaker:support us more. So you end up having a lot of strain up
Speaker:towards your hips. And these things can last
Speaker:forever. They can start to change the shape of your body.
Speaker:You might start to, have, plantar fasciitis in your
Speaker:feet because these boots are so
Speaker:badly fitting and you're having to grip your toes
Speaker:to hold on to the floor. You're also more likely to
Speaker:trip then because they're just bigger, they're like boats on you.
Speaker:And then when women go through perimenopause,
Speaker:everything goes haywire and your
Speaker:feet can stretch by one and a half sizes.
Speaker:So you're still cramming your feet into shoes that you
Speaker:had previously and you're
Speaker:finding that you're getting bunions, bunionettes and
Speaker:hammer toes because everything is like really struggling
Speaker:to stay in there. you're more likely to get, soft
Speaker:tissue injuries. You're, you're
Speaker:going to have sweaty feet because of the,
Speaker:if you're having thermal issues, then you're going to get really, really hot
Speaker:feet, which is a no, no for diabetes. If you have
Speaker:diabetes as well, that you're at higher risk. And
Speaker:the osteoporosis means that you are more
Speaker:likely to break a bone in your
Speaker:feet. And then because we have less
Speaker:testosterone, less oestrogen, less,
Speaker:that word beginning with C that I would just write on my hand
Speaker:soon. Collagen,
Speaker:lower collagen levels, we are
Speaker:injured.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: For longer because the recovery time takes longer.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah. So we are at higher risk of getting
Speaker:injured and staying injured, being
Speaker:off work because of that, which is going to cost the
Speaker:businesses more and especially in replacement fees.
Speaker:And knowing that women are very likely to leave a job
Speaker:in heavy industry between the ages of like
Speaker:42 and 46.
Speaker:That's the leaky pipeline point. you'd think
Speaker:that we'd be buying them the damn boots that fit.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: You think that we'd be investing the extra few quid to make
Speaker:it happen.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah, but we're not.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And, and we see this across all industry. We see that
Speaker:the, the level of investment when it comes to women and what
Speaker:their requirements are is just, it's just not there.
Speaker:No matter who talks about the amount of
Speaker:will, it actually isn't there. When we think about the
Speaker:pipeline piece that you've just mentioned, we lose women between
Speaker:management and leadership at a rate of 60, 40. Men
Speaker:are much more, more likely to be promoted into leadership, by rate of
Speaker:60%. Women at 40%. And then we see the other
Speaker:societal barriers hit us, which again mean
Speaker:that women are likely to deselect, move
Speaker:back, decide that actually they want to go off and do something
Speaker:else. We don't keep women within organisations at that
Speaker:level. And again that's why the pyramid means that when it comes to the C
Speaker:suite, we're much less likely to see women around. And I think
Speaker:one of the things that really irritates the shit out of me
Speaker:is when people will say, well actually there just aren't enough women
Speaker:in our industry. If I would recruit them, I would hire them
Speaker:because they're not there. Anything to yourself? No, no.
Speaker:Open your front door, walk down the street. I bet you see just
Speaker:as many men and women.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: We're there. We're absolutely there. But you've kept
Speaker:your barriers so you've made it impossible
Speaker:for us to apply or for us to stay flexi working,
Speaker:hybrid working. If we're not doing that, we're not going to keep women.
Speaker:If we're not making sure that we're in a position whereby
Speaker:we're closing the gender pay gap, we're not going to keep women,
Speaker:they will go off and do something different. If we're not handling and
Speaker:managing the microaggressions, knowing your example
Speaker:of the guy asking you to smell his
Speaker:aftershave and then turn into kiss you, I
Speaker:mean that's just sexual harassment, never mind a
Speaker:microaggression. But these things happen daily and
Speaker:we just overlook it. Those, societal or those gender
Speaker:norms mean that we don't pay attention to it.
Speaker:We just. Oh, it's banter.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yep. Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So it could have caused her ptsd. She could have lost all of
Speaker:her confidence. Maybe she never had enough confidence anyway. And
Speaker:now we've just really doubled down on that and caused her
Speaker:further trauma.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: There are so many things that we choose not to say, we choose
Speaker:not to change. And I think your level of
Speaker:knowledge around PPE and the level of detail that
Speaker:you've given, even m thinking about the boots is
Speaker:just. It's blown my mind. It's blowing my mind. But
Speaker:I know how much experience you've got. And I
Speaker:wondered, if you were to look back to Katherine when she
Speaker:was early 20s, what
Speaker:would be your biggest piece of advice
Speaker:for her? What would you tell her?
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Care. Ah, less about what people think about you.
Speaker:Yeah. This whole thing about being a good
Speaker:girl. That's why you care, because you are.
Speaker:I was stuck in the middle. I was from
Speaker:being somebody who was
Speaker:already going on a track of
Speaker:I'm always going to be the other. Being a
Speaker:geologist at 21,
Speaker:there are, There were quite a few geologists who were women on
Speaker:my course. It wasn't 5050 yet, but there were a
Speaker:lot. So I wasn't really expecting it to be quite as hard
Speaker:as it has been. but to care
Speaker:less about
Speaker:other people's
Speaker:perceptions of what a woman should be.
Speaker:I think I. Now I
Speaker:really don't care and think
Speaker:I'm going to shave part of my head. I'll shave part of my head.
Speaker:And whatever you say, that's, that's,
Speaker:that's a you, problem. It's not a me problem because it's my
Speaker:head and I'll shave it. Thanks very much. And, if I'm going to wear lips.
Speaker:Lipstick to work. Come to our lipstick to work. It's like, oh, and
Speaker:now you're really confused because you don't know which
Speaker:side fame I am. Oh, well,
Speaker:go and work on, that.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: So deal with it. Absolutely.
Speaker:So. So your advice for yourself
Speaker:would be to care less about what
Speaker:other people think and be authentically
Speaker:you.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah. Lean into me. Stop trying to be something
Speaker:that you think you're supposed to be. Lean
Speaker:into who you are and what makes you
Speaker:you. I think I, I pulled
Speaker:away from that a bit too much for too long. And if I
Speaker:just embraced what was
Speaker:making me me and m. What was making me happy
Speaker:and not trying to perform those.
Speaker:The gender norms and the like, the Beauty
Speaker:standards that you care about so much more in your early
Speaker:20s.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: What would you say is one question that you
Speaker:wish more people asked you
Speaker:about your work and about your journey?
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Why do you stay? Why do you keep
Speaker:going? Because it's clearly shit.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And what, what would you tell them?
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: that this is, this is my career, this is what I've chosen to do.
Speaker:Like, this is me. And, I'm not going to be
Speaker:forced out because I don't have a penis
Speaker:or because I don't, don't comply to the
Speaker:gender norms that still exist. It's like I'm going
Speaker:to carry on going. And if that really gets
Speaker:up your nose, that gives me even more
Speaker:gumption to carry on.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Absolutely.
Speaker:I guess that puts the fire in the belly and it means that, you
Speaker:know, when you are up somebody's nose, that you're changing the status
Speaker:quo, that means it's become uncomfortable for them,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah. And they are having to think about something.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah, yeah. And what's, what's the legacy that
Speaker:you would like to leave? Because obviously you're on a mission. Right. Everything
Speaker:you do is heart led. Right. With this
Speaker:huge amount of experience with it having been
Speaker:undermined in helicopters, trying not to drown,
Speaker:walking around when you've got men in their pants, you know,
Speaker:so many things. Well, I guess
Speaker:what's the legacy that you want to leave? What do you want people to say about
Speaker:Katherine Evans?
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Fix the bloody PPE problem?
Speaker:Yeah, there's that one. But, yeah, improving
Speaker:women's safety, helping people see
Speaker:that women's safety needs
Speaker:something else. Like, we are different and yes, I'm
Speaker:very happy to be different. And we can talk about our differences and we
Speaker:can celebrate our differences. Equality and equity, equity
Speaker:aren't the same thing. and that, I want to see that there
Speaker:is investment. Like, we're talking about investment being actually
Speaker:sunk into these things. That, that is
Speaker:what's missing. It's putting money into
Speaker:something where women and people with a uterus are actually going to
Speaker:be the only beneficiaries in the short term, but in the
Speaker:long term we all benefit. And I think it's trying
Speaker:to get people to see that.
Speaker:And I feel like getting somewhere because there are
Speaker:some brilliant organisations who
Speaker:completely sign up to it and they have seen the
Speaker:light because they've given me the opportunity to speak in front
Speaker:of them. getting past this thing where people think
Speaker:that you're a feminist, so you're a man hater. It's like,
Speaker:if I was a man eater, would I be Able to go and
Speaker:work in a mine with 300 men and it just be me.
Speaker:If I thought that all men were a threat and
Speaker:I was terrified. It's like I, I
Speaker:picked the man over the bear because I lived
Speaker:in Canada and, I've seen bears and
Speaker:I've seen men and I don't. I'm really not afraid of
Speaker:men, but I'm really
Speaker:scared of bears.
Speaker:Yeah, it's like I don't. People. When
Speaker:people see that I'm not trying to push this
Speaker:narrative that women, are good and men are bad, that this is a
Speaker:societal thing, that the problem is
Speaker:something that we all need to work on together and,
Speaker:and we can, and we will. And
Speaker:yeah, getting in front of people,
Speaker:being able to see that and then seeing the penny drop. It's that
Speaker:aha moment when I start to
Speaker:talk about things that and the lens that I see the world through
Speaker:and they say, I never thought about it
Speaker:like that. And like, well, now you've seen it,
Speaker:you can't unsee it, so let's do something
Speaker:about it.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: And how do they reach you so that they can get
Speaker:their aha moments?
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Well, I'm working a lot with the Institute of
Speaker:Quarrying. So right now I'm going to be able to reach a
Speaker:lot of people who work in surface mines in the uk.
Speaker:They can come and see me. Like tomorrow I will be in
Speaker:Derby. I'm training in Derby. I've got
Speaker:Yorkshire and Midlands still to
Speaker:do, later in the month and next month.
Speaker:But I know that this podcast may not be going out anytime soon, so
Speaker:that's not much help. However, I
Speaker:am quite used to standing in front of people
Speaker:and talking about these things. I do a lot of
Speaker:presentations, a lot of training opportunity, lots
Speaker:of, keynote speaking. And
Speaker:if they contact me through LinkedIn, if they look for
Speaker:Katherine Evans on LinkedIn or they look for Balders Brass, then they can
Speaker:contact me or Katherine bouldersbrass.com
Speaker:and we can talk about what it is
Speaker:that they want to see changing, if they want something
Speaker:to do with anti oppression and they want me to speak to
Speaker:their men and women about what anti
Speaker:oppression is to me, what it is to not,
Speaker:be a good girl, what it is to not expect women to be
Speaker:a good girl and how we can adapt
Speaker:to how society is right
Speaker:now and things that we can do
Speaker:to help women when they're
Speaker:pregnant, at work, when they're off work,
Speaker:when they come back to work, because that
Speaker:perinatal stage, the whole thing
Speaker:that sets such a tone, for the rest of their career
Speaker:and could be something that's working towards this leaky
Speaker:pipeline. I think we could be doing far
Speaker:more in terms of risk assessment. So that's
Speaker:something that I could talk about. I talk about ppe,
Speaker:I talk about women's safety in general in heavy
Speaker:industry and what that, actually looks like,
Speaker:and then just, yeah, just want to see
Speaker:change. And I want to.
Speaker:I'm not here to give anybody a barlogging. I just
Speaker:want the penny to drop and for us to go, oh,
Speaker:well, we can do that. Because I'm all about practical solutions and
Speaker:not just saying, we need to make sure that
Speaker:IND is incorporated from the top down. It's
Speaker:like, well, what does that look like? Give me the solutions.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Absolutely. So will you consult with them? you'll deliver training?
Speaker:What are the services that you offer?
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Yeah, training. The consultation
Speaker:side is like, more to do with the audit, I
Speaker:guess, auditing where they are right now, where they feel
Speaker:that they want to go, what they think are the problems. Whether it's
Speaker:just a case of looking over their comms, as we were talking
Speaker:about strong comms and making sure that their messaging is
Speaker:right, having a look at their specs when they send
Speaker:the job specs out. Are, they gendered? Are, they using
Speaker:male language? Gendered. Heavy language. That
Speaker:means that they're already putting up a barrier.
Speaker:And what are those barriers inside, like auditing to find those
Speaker:barriers inside the company that, ensure an
Speaker:environment is constantly created for men and men
Speaker:alone. So we need to adapt that. We need to design her
Speaker:in from the beginning. And even if
Speaker:that is, retrospective afterwards, then
Speaker:let's just bloody do it.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: Yeah, absolutely. Let's just bloody do it. Let's
Speaker:design her in from the start. I have to say,
Speaker:Katherine you have been not only a subject matter
Speaker:expert, not only fascinating, you've been engaging, you've
Speaker:been an absolute delight to spend time with.
Speaker:And my hope is that people will reach out to you,
Speaker:Balders brass, Katherine Evans, and have the
Speaker:conversation about what they can do to
Speaker:create that safety piece for women in their
Speaker:workplace. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been an
Speaker:absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker:>> Katherine Evans: Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker:>> Jo Phillips: I've loved it.
Speaker:As you were.
